Living On Common Ground
Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario? Every environment? Your church, your school, your work, your friends. Left, right. Conservative, liberal. Religious, secular. From parenting styles to school choice, denominational choice to governing preference, it seems you're always being asked to take a side.
This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground.
Living On Common Ground
Modern Tribes: How Wealth Changed American Families
Are Americans having fewer children because we're too poor—or because we're too wealthy? This provocative question launches our exploration into plummeting birth rates and changing family structures across America and other developed nations.
When fertility rates drop below replacement level, what does it mean for our future? We dive into recent statistics showing U.S. birth rates hitting historic lows (fewer than 1.6 children per woman) while challenging conventional narratives about why this is happening. Contrary to popular belief, data consistently shows that more affluent societies have fewer children—not the other way around.
We examine how the rise of individualism has fundamentally altered family formation patterns. Where multi-generational households once provided built-in support systems for young parents, modern couples often feel they must establish themselves independently before starting families. This cultural shift has removed traditional safety nets and created logical incentives to delay parenthood.
The conversation takes a personal turn as we reflect on our own family experiences—one from a close-knit "tribal" background where cousins, aunts, uncles, and grandparents provided a rich support network, the other with a more typical modern American family structure. These personal stories illuminate how different family configurations shape our perspectives on when and how to have children.
Whether you're wrestling with family planning decisions or simply curious about the demographic forces shaping our society, this thoughtful discussion offers valuable perspective on one of the most consequential choices we make—both individually and collectively.
Listen now to find your own place in this important conversation about how we build families in modern America, and what we might be losing—or gaining—along the way.
Does it feel like every part of your life is divided, Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular? It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground.
Speaker 2:Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends.
Speaker 3:I don't know, but we're friends now.
Speaker 4:A mob is no less a mob because they are with him, man. So what? We won a few games and y'all fools think that's something. Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp, cool. But then we're right back here and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man. How you doing.
Speaker 6:I am great Krista says that she's going to throttle me if she hears us ask if we're recording one more time to start off the episode.
Speaker 2:And so I'm asking are we recording? Yeah, oh good, okay, yep, yes, in fact, from now on, krista, my clue to lucas will simply be how you doing yeah and that means that I'm recording. It's the same way that we do the weekly update video and then I'll ask are we?
Speaker 2:recording. Okay, so that was all just for Krista. Yes, we are, and so, anyway, today we're going to talk about birth rates in the United States. We're going to start out first, but we're going to talk about birth rates, but then we're also going to talk about the idea of the impact that waiting to have children is having on birth rates as well, as is the decline in birth rates and or is the waiting longer to have children and to begin families connected to the wealth that we have?
Speaker 6:As a country.
Speaker 2:As a country, well, and I think really in the West, because I mean we're going to look at the so okay, let's do this. Let's start with. I got a clip.
Speaker 6:Hang on. I'm going to say very clearly, though this all started because I this is, this is one statement that I do stand behind Yep Pretty stridently and I'm willing to back it up yeah, I'm not going to read any of your statements.
Speaker 2:If you want to make them, you make them yeah, I'm going to make this one.
Speaker 6:there's some of them that I won't make because I I made these statements to be intentionally inflammatory. But this one that that people would be better off getting married younger and having kids younger and having more kids Okay, I am willing to put my neck out on that.
Speaker 2:So just out of curiosity, before the clip now yeah, how old were you when Reed was born?
Speaker 6:Yeah, okay, okay. I was Well, okay, so he got. He was born in 08. Jeez, I'm terrible about this. I was. I think I was like 26.
Speaker 2:Okay 27. In my mind that's younger.
Speaker 6:Yeah, I was 27.
Speaker 2:I was 27. Okay.
Speaker 6:That is not younger man.
Speaker 2:Okay, I was 34 when Madison our first was born and Denise was 27. I was 27. Okay, I was not younger man. Okay, I was 34 when Madison our first was born.
Speaker 7:And Denise was 33.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, and then she turned 34. Yeah. And then Robbie came three years later. So I was 37 when Robbie was born. So, yeah, we waited. Yeah, we didn't wait as long as Denise's sister, who was early 40s Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6:Was she 40? Okay, so I do want to say also yeah, she was in her 40s. This is delicate, obviously, because as soon as we start talking about people, individual people, it's going to sound real judgy.
Speaker 2:Right and so okay, just to say this too the reason I bring up our family is just to give us an idea of um, what we're talking about in terms of older adults, um, adults that are traditionally older for childbearing. I don't think on my, I don't think there's a judgment on it at all. I think it's just a reality of the culture that we live in.
Speaker 6:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I attach no judgment to identifying the fact that at 40 years old, traditionally you're getting beyond what they would call quote-unquote parenting.
Speaker 6:Well, and that's not just a culture thing, though.
Speaker 6:I mean that's a biological thing. And also just for context as well, that's a biological thing. And, and, and also just for context as well, um, my, uh, my grandmother who raised me, my grandparents who raised me, uh, she now think, whatever, you wanted this, and this is the fifties in California. The fifties in California, uh, she got married when my grandpa was 20 and she was 16 and she had all three of her kids by the time she was 21. Yep, and then done.
Speaker 6:So that's that's the context, that I knew that, yeah, and then, um, and again, I'm not trying to well and we'll play this clip and then move on with the conversation, but, um, I also want to make sure that it's really clear that I'm not trying to say this is, I think there's a rhetorical trap that we fall into sometimes where, uh, we go well, I think that it would be better if X, and then people say, well, you didn't do X, and then you try to justify why you didn't do X, or maybe you try to like slide into really, I did, because blah, blah, blah, no, blah, no, I. Um, obviously everyone's situation is different. Um, but we didn't, I mean, we, we did get married. We did get married young, according to like what most people would think I was oh, I got married young.
Speaker 6:We waited 11 years, though, to have kids okay, so you did okay, all right, okay, I was thinking it was going to be. I was thinking you got married a little bit. No of course, because you guys met in college. Yeah, you got married right out of college. Yes, yeah, we got engaged in college.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, we got married. And let's see, I got married in 93. Yeah, I was born in 71. So I was still 21. I turned 22 the next month. So okay, Denise was 21. She didn't turn 22 until November.
Speaker 6:Okay, so I turned 21 the month before I got married, so pretty much the same situation. Yeah, we just waited a little bit less. Yeah, we waited 11 years before we had Madison. So you can tell me to shut up and mind my own business, but was that a clear? We're deciding to wait that long, so um.
Speaker 2:so, when we got married, Denise's father said to us just remember that you're young, enjoy each other for a while. And so that was all he said, and and we did. And then, though, and we did. Then though we also did have some fertility issues, as did we. It was so funny, though, because, like of course, it's easier to first test the guy. Sure, right, yeah, and so I went to a doctor. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I did what I needed to do in order to be tested. Uh-huh, and I did what I needed to do in order to be tested and when we went back he said to me I'll never forget he said you played football right? And I said yeah. And he said okay, let me put it like this you don't have any All-Americans in told I was told, you have plenty of guys, lots of guys. None of them want to do anything. They're all real lethargic now that the comedy's over?
Speaker 7:well, maybe for now. Here's the clip. This is a news clip actually from just in June of this year on CBS. Listen to this the birth rate in the US is dropping and actually hit an all-time low in 2024. Fewer than 1.6 children were born per woman last year. In the early 1960s, the total fertility rate was around 3.5. But a CDC review of birth certificates released earlier this year found a 1% increase in live births in 2024. That's about 33,000 more than the year prior. Here to explain is Dr Joanne Stone. She's a maternal fetal medicine specialist and a professor and chair at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai. Dr Stone, thank you so much for joining us. So my first question is explain what this means that the fertility rate is dropping but the number of births increased.
Speaker 3:So the general fertility rate means the number of births given to women who are aged 15 to 44 per 1,000 women. So while the number of births actually increase, the number of births per woman decrease. So there's just a larger pool, and it's really interesting when you break it down into age-specific numbers. So women aged 15 to 34 had a decline in number of births, women aged 35 to 39 were stable and women who are 40 to over had an increase in births. So it's really those women in their 40s that are driving that small increase in births.
Speaker 7:And doctor, do we know why we're seeing a decline in the fertility rate?
Speaker 3:Well, fertility rate, I think, is an indicator of public health. I think we have to ask the question why is that? I think things like access to reproductive care, health economics, the cost of living, housing and paid parental leave are key factors to that decrease in birth rate.
Speaker 7:When we do see a dip in the fertility rate like this, is that something we should be concerned about? Why does that matter?
Speaker 3:I think it matters because there's less people coming into the workplace. I mean, years from now we're going to have less workers, less people in the classroom, so I think that it does have a large impact on the overall population.
Speaker 7:Now the Trump administration has actually been trying to encourage Americans to have more children. We're seeing benefits expanded access to IVF, baby bonuses to families, things like that. Could those potentially be effective?
Speaker 3:I think there's a lot of controversy about that. What is the actual impact going to be? So that executive bill is asking for recommendations? I'm not sure it's going to impact our low-income women and have access to those women who seek those kind of care, and we know the maternity deserts across rural America so well. I think it remains to be seen what that impact will be.
Speaker 7:And when we talk about the fertility rate, I mean this is is it economical, Is it cultural, Is it a lot of factors that are influencing?
Speaker 3:I think it's a lot of factors and I think the fact that we're seeing women in their 40s show that women are delaying childbearing for both personal and professional reasons. Medical advances are really important. Advances in reproductive technology are helping women who are older have children, but I think overall that's what's driving the gene.
Speaker 7:All right, dr Joanne Stone. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it. Thank you All right, dr Joanne Stone. Thank you so much for joining us, we appreciate it.
Speaker 6:Thank you All right there was a lot of information there. What are your initial thoughts in regards to what we're talking about? So we're kind of transitioning here in the conversation to a more societal conversation, which is fine, um uh.
Speaker 2:I just I kind of see it all connected.
Speaker 6:It is connected. It is connected for sure, but um I, when I look at this, I do think of it as two separate things. Okay. One being the choice for an individual couple. Mm-hmm. When do they want? To couple when do they want to, how do they?
Speaker 6:want to structure their lives and what kind of trade-offs do they want? And then, uh, the societal impacts or, uh, the societal changes that are happening, um, and what we can kind of predict from that and how we should think of that. Is there a should that we should, you know? Should we think of it in any way? Right? So I have a couple thoughts. Number one is this issue it's so interesting that it's have you, it's so interesting. Let me finish this sentence.
Speaker 6:It's so interesting that it's becoming a bubbling up to the surface news story right now. Maybe it shouldn't be interesting to me, actually, now that I'm thinking about this. Anyway, have you ever had this experience where you're into some aspect of society or history or something and you research it and you study it and there's some people who are talking about it but they're not known to any of your friends. They're not known to most people.
Speaker 2:It happens to me all the time.
Speaker 6:And you're like, oh, this is interesting and they're talking about some issue, some issue, and so you kind of have, um, you kind of have a, a concept of this issue and you know that people are talking about it, you know the arguments for and against this, whatever, um, but nobody that you know talks about it, and then it continues to. You continue to follow it. You know it's a continued issue, but nobody, nobody really cares. Then, like 10 years later, 15 years later, people start talking about it as if it's brand new. You know, I felt this way about AI. I'm not trying to say like, oh, I knew about AI before, it was cool, although I kind of did. I kind of do feel like that. I know, intellectually that's not the case, but I was listening to people like elon musk and sam harris and some of the other big thinkers who were talking about the, the paperclip problem and all of this kind of stuff, um, llms and that kind of thing. Like 10 years ago, I was listening to elon musk talk about how, uh, he had, prior to that, been sounding the alarm. Nobody cared and so he had decided at that point this is like eight, nine years ago or whatever, we only have one choice and that's to meld with it, because we're never going to stop it, and that's where Neuralink came from. This is another one.
Speaker 6:So Mark Stein wrote a book in the early 2000s called America Alone, where he was talking at that point about birth rates. That was the main focus of the book. There's other aspects of the book as well. It's the silent driver of all civilization. Civilizations rise and fall on demographics. And what he was pointing out at the time and I pulled up these statistics so that I could have them was that in 2000, by 2000, almost every single Western European country was well, number one. All of them were below replacement rate. All of them, most of them, had gotten to what some demographers this is just a term would call collapse rate or severe demographic decline rate, like 1.3 per woman, mm-hmm. Right, these countries and I have these, but like Western Europe and other developed countries, japan was like this as well, korea was like this as well.
Speaker 6:You look across the globe in the early 2000s, if you're a developed country, what we would consider a developed country, you had below replacement, except the states united states and there's a couple other ones, but it was mostly the united states was still at like 2.2, 2.3, but he points out that's because we have uh birthright citizenship, uh, you know, uh unconditional birthright citizenship, so we are counting every birth happening, right? So, whatever you think about illegal immigration, those birds were counted. His point was this is obviously an underlying incentive for the politicians to not solve the illegal immigration problem, because we need it to prop up our economic systems, because it's the only thing that's keeping us above replacement. Well, what they're pointing out here in this clip is because we're still we're still counting everyone right, they're pointing out, it's still dropping below replacement I have a number that I've found 11.9 births per 1000 people.
Speaker 2:That sounds to me like it's below replacement. That's right. That's quite a bit, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. So yeah, cause in the in the clip they they talk about the problems that that you begin to have as a society when your birth rate drops below. But I want to go back a little bit, because we talked about the factors, like when we talk about deciding whether or not to have children, or deciding whether or not to have children later in life. Yeah, the original topic was this idea, because I think that in my mind, the decision to have children later in life is also the determining factor for the drop in birth rates, because it becomes more and more difficult to have them.
Speaker 6:Absolutely Right, I also see that the economic… to wait and somebody who would decide to have less and focus more of their economic assets, whatever their economic force, into a smaller pool, right? So anyway, go ahead no, no, absolutely our.
Speaker 2:Our mentality was we can still divide and conquer. Yeah, with only two. Yeah, um, and we've replaced. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 6:That's right. We did our part and you got both of them to sexual maturity.
Speaker 2:That's important, and we got a guy and a girl.
Speaker 6:Yeah you, we completely replaced. That's right, you did.
Speaker 2:Yep, so I'm done. I can now become dirt.
Speaker 6:As long as somebody else got three, you need somebody to get three.
Speaker 2:Well, that was where I was counting on you, but you blew it, I know, and you got two guys.
Speaker 6:I don't know what you're doing. I know I'm not doing anything. I know.
Speaker 2:So all right, so you have an economic factor that contributes to the, to the personal decision of whether or not we're going to have children, and that impacts birth rates. But when you say that it is better, right, for who? Yeah, okay, that's the question I have. Better for who?
Speaker 6:Yeah, so when I'm talking about that that's why I'm saying like I do separate those two statements a little bit in my mind when I'm talking about better, I am talking about for um, let me, let me make this argument as succinct as I can. I'm not talking about for the society, I'm not relating it that way.
Speaker 5:I'm saying I think humans greatest Like humans' greatest drive is toward responsibility and purpose.
Speaker 6:Even though, on an objective level, I don't see anything higher than taking responsibility as being the purpose for my life, and I think that, just like all other organisms, our greatest drive is to replace ourselves. I think that the greatest opportunity for fulfillment is in creating a family. So I do think, on the aggregate, it's a more enriched life to mate, have a family and pour your life into that family. I think that that is an enriched life. And for the kids now, there's always the argument that it's better for the kids to have older parents because they have more money. That's always the argument that it comes down to Um and you know, I, in a particular um, under a particular perspective, I can understand that Um.
Speaker 6:However, I also know that there is an kind of an, an ancient process whereby large families have the kids having this experience of not only being the kid to the parent but also being a parent to the younger kids and having it be this kind of tribe um that I think I, you know, I think it's trade-off when we've, when we have, smaller families, um later in life. You know, I think that there is um, something to the um, having to figure it out when you're young. Everyone knows that they look back at those young years as like these golden years. You know, like um, and I know when you're in it it's really hard. I mean I, I obviously I've I've experienced that as well, so I understand that, um. I just think I, I think that we're trading off things that we don't, we don't realize we're trading off when we're waiting later and later and having less and less.
Speaker 2:So a couple couple thoughts. One is, um, you, you talked about, the greatest opportunity to experience fulfillment is with the family, right? Um, I would love to talk about fulfillment because I'm not sure that we can ever actually experience it. Okay, okay, um, I think, I think fulfillment is one of those things that is ever elusive.
Speaker 6:Mm-hmm, I think you and Rollins probably would agree on that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, and which is probably why I've enjoyed reading. By the way, there was one other book of his that I read that I failed to mention, so I I held back a little bit of the fanboy, okay, um, uh, it's, it's, uh, the divine what was it? Called. Anyway, I've got, uh, right over there, the divine magician, oh yeah, um, so anyway, um, I think that's one of the reasons I really like peter rollins is because the reason I think he's brilliant is because we agree on a lot of stuff.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that's what makes people brilliant. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So, but I do think that the discussion about fulfillment probably needs to be a completely separate conversation. Sure, so for the time being I will. I'll grant you that.
Speaker 6:I also think that we're animals. I don't you.
Speaker 6:I think we're animals and I think this concept of a soul is an emergent concept and it comes out of human experience, and I would, I want to have as human of an experience as possible to develop this thing called a soul, and I think that I think that pouring myself into my family is the number one thing for me to do Now. I will say this, I will grant this it may be that where our society is currently and actually this gets back to the demographic thing and my whole argument that it's actually wealthy countries that have lower birth rates it's not because we don't have enough money to have kids, it's when we have more money we have less kids.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I don't think you could actually argue with that.
Speaker 6:Well, that is the argument happening online right now, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:The argument happening online right now is what?
Speaker 6:I know you're not on social media, but if you go on social media Reddit, whatever the younger millennials I'm an elder millennial, that anybody who's like 30 and under.
Speaker 6:they are convinced. Well, and I shouldn't say they, as if they're one big block, but you know what I mean. There is a strong argument being made. The reason our birth rates are dropping is because we're all so poor. That's why, because we don't have enough money. And so and that was an argument that that woman was making too, that woman, that doctor, was making Part of her argument for why it was happening was because number one, she said, lack of access to fertility care, which doesn't make any sense at all, because the drop is in younger moms. There's an increase. She even said there's an increase in older moms. Well, those are the ones who would be using fertility care. So it doesn't make any sense that having less fertility care would cause a drop in younger moms.
Speaker 6:But she also said that lack of access to-.
Speaker 2:I'm glad, by the way, there's a drop in birth rates among 15, 16, 17, 18-year-olds. It's interesting, isn't it? Mm-hmm, I think that's a great thing, myself.
Speaker 6:I know when we were growing up well, you're 10 years older than me, so you tell me, when I was growing up, when I was in high school, the number one thing people talked about was teen pregnancy. You don't talk about that at all anymore. Nobody cares about teen pregnancy anymore. I think it's not an issue.
Speaker 2:Well, but also the thing. It's just, it's not an issue, but I think it's also become. It's not as taboo as it used to be. Do you think that's what it is? I think so Because I know that they have daycares now in high schools and it's not for the teachers. I understand that, I mean back when I was a kid but if a girl got? Pregnant. Yeah, yeah, I mean we, you know well.
Speaker 6:She got shipped off to an aunt's house or whatever, and it's a it's a main storyline in in dangerous minds, one of my absolute favorite films for the 90s. Okay, that's a shout out to my wife. Yeah, that, one of the that the smartest, the most the smartest student in her class, you know, I'll just say in her ghetto class. That was the whole point of the movie. Right, she's in a ghetto school.
Speaker 6:Okay, and the smartest one, the bright one, the one that was really going places got pregnant and the school was like, well, we have a school for teenage moms that teaches them about how to take care of the baby and blah, blah, blah. And the whole plot line was, well, you don't have to go, you can still graduate and get your degree. And she's like, no, I'm not going to. And then she shows up at the end, you know, and it's all, and it's supposed to be like a no, you, you know, we want you still here in school, but I would. I would be interested in seeing what the statistics are, because I I know that I have been tracking demographers talking about how, um, teenagers and, uh, 20-somethings are having less sex, just in general, right, and so it's this interesting thing.
Speaker 2:I also think there's less taboo around birth control.
Speaker 6:That's probably true.
Speaker 2:Because, when, I was in high school. I can remember when I was in college Because, like when I was in high school, I can remember when I was in college, there was a clinic in the town that I was in school, in St Augustine, and you could go and get. You'd get a lunch bag full of condoms if you wanted them, but there were guys in college that were so embarrassed and so ashamed that they would go down and like, put in fake information.
Speaker 2:Sure, because you had to put your information so they could, you know, turn it in and get their grants or whatever, yeah, um, nowadays I don't.
Speaker 2:I think that most people are, it's just commonplace. Well, the things that are in grocery store like if I go into walgreens to pick up my prescription the things that are on the shelf now under family planning, blow my mind. All right, we don't need to get into that Real quick. Shout out though for a podcast I would highly recommend to people that have to do with teen pregnancy, and then we'll kind of move off of that and get back into our topic here. But it's called Liberty Lost. Have you heard of this? No, so it's a. It's a short, a short. Um, what do you call those where it's like maybe nine episodes, but it's the?
Speaker 2:it's just like an in-depth report yeah whatever you, whatever you call that, yeah and um, it's put out by it doesn't matter. Put it out, but anyway it's really interesting. It's about the um maternal houses that liberty university has oh okay, and that's all I'm going to say. I would highly recommend listening to that. Okay and okay.
Speaker 6:Well, look, let me just go on the record and say I think you should get married before you mate. Okay, I do think that. Oh, yeah, I think so too. So I think that you should be getting married. I think get married young, have kids young, that's fine. So, yes, I'm happy that you know a 15 year old experimenting with having sex with her boyfriend isn't getting pregnant, right, I'm supposed to say I'm happy that they're not having sex Right, because that's what we were worried about in the 90s, when you're in college.
Speaker 2:I'm in high school. We were participating in some form of it, and so I also think that some of that, that our experience, has to do with a morality that was given to us based on faith, which I think is fine, sure that's where I'll be fine with that. I also think that Christianity somehow got warped into being about moral policing, but that's again.
Speaker 6:We can have a long conversation about that, because I think that that's actually inherent to humans and that any kind of religion is going to be focused on violence and sex. We're just coming up with so many topics right now, are you?
Speaker 2:writing these all down.
Speaker 6:We need you writing these down? No, but I'm.
Speaker 2:Fulfillment and morality.
Speaker 6:I am saying so there's this little I've seen it written in schools and there's this little like three rule, uh, uh, agenda, that's not the right word. Anyway, it's like these three rules, um, and I don't know where it came, where it comes from, actually, but it's like somebody did this study and if you followed these three rules, Do you remember the rules? Yeah, I'm going to tell you the rules.
Speaker 6:Okay, good, if you don't follow these rules, there's something like a 75% chance you end up below the poverty line. It's a correlative situation, right, it's not causation, it's correlation, but it's a real strong correlation, so it's you might as well follow it, or look at it, you know, and if you do follow the three rules, it's like it's almost impossible for you to fall below the poverty line. Um, uh, let me remember it finish high school, get married after you finish high school and don't have a kid before you get married. I think that's the three things.
Speaker 2:Sounds like If you do that Sounds like good advice.
Speaker 6:It's, but think about that, though. I mean, it's something that has to be said for huge. Well, it's not. I don't know if you don't think about, if you don't, how rough your life would be. You know how difficult life is. Um, I do want to finish my my thought, which is it could be that we live in a society so structured and I don't think it's been structured like there's a conspiracy to structure it this way.
Speaker 6:I just think it's developed into this of half it's. We're kind of pushed into this situation of like it'd be better for me as an individual to wait, because we don't live in tribes, we don't have multi-generational households, we don't, you know, if you had the multi-generational household.
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 6:You get married, well, okay. But think I have people I know they're all immigrants, these people I know that I'm going to talk about. That's important because they are from very distinctly different cultures, and they are all these people that I'm thinking of. They're very successful. We would consider them successful economically. I would also consider them successful socially, like familially right, with their family. They're all multi-generation households. Mom and dad came over with virtually nothing. They built up some business, lived like they were poor. They had kids. Their kids grew up.
Speaker 6:It was no expectation for the kids to leave and go out and forge their own way at 18 years old, right? No expectation. It was no expectation for the kids to leave and go out and forge their own way at 18 years old, right? No expectation. There was an expectation. However, you work for the family, you go to school, you, you know you do the things you're supposed to do. You get married. When you get married, your spouse moves in with us. Now you guys are contributing, right? You have kids. Now we have three generations in here and at that point, maybe it's time for you to. Now there's a section of the business that you can take over and you go start your maybe right, that seems like a village. More to me that seems like a tribe.
Speaker 2:Yeah no-transcript.
Speaker 6:You know you're going to be at the bottom of the as jordan peterson call it, the prado distribution. You know you'll be at the bottom of that hierarchy. It's going to take a while to to, you know, step up on it. So yeah, I can see why for an individual it would be beneficial to wait. And uh, you know, it's kind of like the tragedy of the commons problem where, like, what's good for me doesn't end up being good for the group. You know.
Speaker 2:Well, someone that was pulled out of tribe, right, because I grew up with what you're describing. Okay, I grew up where I lived with my grandparents and my mom and my mom's sisters all still lived at home. Down the street was my mom's oldest brother, his wife and my two cousins. The other way, just a few blocks, was my middle, the middle child, another uncle with his wife and young family, and then when I was in eighth grade and so that, like no-transcript.
Speaker 6:Yeah, it was like oh he lives in Fairview now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which cause they were going to. This was like going to be the first time kids didn't go to Rocky river high schools.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then we moved out to North Ridgeville, which, oh my gosh, that was like a full 20 minutes away. But even then it was very much a tribe, like we all, all the generations, were there and we all played together and we all hung together and and even though you had friends, these were like your best friends. And then in eighth grade I got ripped out of that and ever since then I think I have like my goal in life is to create tribe. So anyway, I I firmly believe that we have done ourselves a disservice by pushing so hard on the American rugged individualism.
Speaker 6:Well, and it's what I'm gonna use, this phrase, it's gonna be a lot of you. It's what tamed the west. Uh, yeah, it, but but it, but it is the. I think that it's the, it's the but even then tribes went together that's true, but what I'm saying is um, yeah, but by the time you piled up in california, there was a lot of people who didn't have any place to go back to because they had burned all their bridges.
Speaker 6:That's what made up California for us, but anyway, yeah, I think that it's a repercussion and, to be clear, I think there are a lot of benefits to individualism, but I think that this is a repercussion. What I think is interesting about your story you left when you were eight, eighth grade, eighth grade.
Speaker 2:So like 12, 13. Yeah.
Speaker 6:So you know your experience of it was, as the kid, having these emotional bonds with your cousins and uncles I lost.
Speaker 2:like I burst into tears as we drove off my street.
Speaker 6:I can only imagine I burst into tears as we drove off my street. I can only imagine. But if you were an adult in that, I'll bet there was an enormous amount of economic benefit from that. Somebody has drywall that's rotting out and you've got three guys that can come over, the uncles can come over, yep, whatever, pick your thing. So there'd be that as well. Childcare, well, which is when you're in a true kind of kinship society, which yours was kind of a quasi kinship society inside of this american society. Um, it's unacceptable for that society to allow, like one of your aunts and uncles to lose their home and nobody knows, right.
Speaker 6:That'd be unacceptable yeah absolutely Like everyone would feel a sense of shame, you know, unless they had done something to particularly pull themselves out of the kin and you know whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's almost like you had a safety net around you.
Speaker 6:That's right, that is the safety net. And when we take that away as a society, guess what has to step in is the government has to step in with safety nets. Now you can also argue that the government sometimes starts that process and rips up the safety nets of the family.
Speaker 2:I would argue that that has happened a lot of times. You create dependency on the government sure.
Speaker 6:Time government sure. But yeah, I mean, you know, I we're just talking about this. Chris and I were just talking about this yesterday. We've got this friend who lives in indiana and she lives in the town that she grew up in and I'll get this wrong, but she has like something like 30 or 40 cousins that live in town and she said, like I live here, she's educated, her husband's educated, they're, and that's important because, like they are mobile, they travel a lot to Europe and what I you know, they could move, they could live wherever really, and get jobs and be fine. Um, and she said, if, if my family wasn't here, there's, there's no other reason to live in Fortville, indiana. You know, we're looking at where our kid's going to land and trying to decide if that needs to determine where we live.
Speaker 2:And just one last thought about that, because then I want to kind of run through. I pulled up two articles and then I compiled, like what they have as the benefits of marrying and having children younger, or what's the benefits of delaying marriage and starting a family later, and there's a couple of different articles that I pulled this from, and so I want to kind of wrap it up with that. But you mentioned that, coming from a different culture, I will say that my grandparents were first-generation United States and I think that that probably had something to do with it too. From where the Netherlands?
Speaker 6:From the Netherlands, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would imagine. Yeah, I mean my mom still.
Speaker 6:well, I don't know if she still does, but for a long time she still kept in contact with cousins in the netherlands and so just to be clear really quickly with your situation, then it wasn't like everyone's, it wasn't like we're taking care of grandma, grandpa.
Speaker 6:Then it's like grandma and grandpa set up this shop and everyone stayed here not that they didn't take care of grandma and grandpa, but my point is like there's this other thing of like my parent has gotten too old to be able to live on her own, his own whatever, and so we've moved them into our house. That's a different thing. Yeah, that's fine, that's good. Right, I think that's good too, but that's a different thing from we set up shop. This is now like kind of our fiefdom if you want to say we're responsible for these people and our descendants.
Speaker 2:And then we're responsible for them.
Speaker 6:And then there's a responsibility that goes out.
Speaker 2:And even when they're still very capable. So when I lived with my grandparents, they both still worked. Yeah, right, they were still bringing income into the home. Yeah, and the only one that was still in school was my Aunt Gail. Yeah.
Speaker 2:She was in high school. She might have been a senior in high school at the time, but I also then knew, like my grandma and grandpa's brothers and sisters, mm-hmm, then knew like my grandma and grandpa's brothers and sisters, and they were part of our tribe and their kids were part of the tribe and you know, sort of you still had them too. Like my first baseball glove was given to me from my mom's cousin's son, who I knew, yeah Right, and who I would go and watch the television show planet of the Apes at their house and I loved being at their house. I knew my great grandparents, john and Jenny, who it was actually Johan, but anyway, but when they got to the United States it became John and Jenny. My brother and sister are named after, like John is a generational name in our family and so, like we just, you just knew everyone and I have I have memories and stories that go along with that.
Speaker 2:Like I can remember when my great grandfather got older, I would, um, we would go visit him all the time and, uh, he lived in a little apartment and, um, my grandmother had passed away at this time and and, uh, I would, um, I would eat his peaches becauseaches, because he loved peaches and cottage cheese. Well, he liked the cottage cheese, he didn't like the peaches, and so he gave me the canned peaches all the time.
Speaker 6:So anyway, but there was something to be said for that. Yeah, that baseball mitt was not a baseball mitt to you.
Speaker 2:No, it was Chris's mitt.
Speaker 6:That was your time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:That was a coming of it. That was like a.
Speaker 2:When I lost that mitt, I was devastated. By the time I lost it, it was falling apart. Yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 6:Because it was your position in the family.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 6:It was a representation of your position in this world. You know, I say yeah, I get that.
Speaker 2:So, all right. So we world, you know, I say, yeah, I get that. So all right, so we're going to wrap this one up back. I feel like we digressed a little bit, but it all connects to, I think. Just to kind of connect everything again, we're talking about what are the benefits of, uh, having getting married and having children? Younger is is. Is that better than waiting? Um, we talked about that there are— we agreed that it is.
Speaker 2:Not yet. We'll find our common ground here in a minute. But we agreed that part of the decision-making, whether it's good or bad or whether it's true or not, is economics. There's also this cultural influence beyond simply economics, beyond capitalist capitalism. There's also this idea that we've lost a little bit which you would call tribe, you could simply call extended family. But the culture that we live in really emphasizes the rugged individualism and because of that we've also been find ourselves in a situation where, because we every generation seems to be starting out anew, it makes sense to kind of try to wait and establish yourself a little bit first, where, if you're still part of a tribe, the idea of having to get established first isn't necessary because you have a complete built-in support system around you.
Speaker 6:All right, so other things Well all of our movies, all of our TV shows are all written by people who are in their early 20s and trying and doing that, and so our cultural zeitgeist is that, that is, it's not just like that's a way to do it, it is absolutely the best way to do it to go out and be by yourself and get rid of the parents who just don't understand.
Speaker 2:How I Met your Mother Friends. Like those are shows where it's all the young people and they're waiting longer. Yeah, there was something else I was about to say. Oh and something else about the economic, because in the thing in that news clip we started with, you talked about how there are some economic challenges. Now, right, and people talk about how the like. One of the things I've heard is that this is going to be the first generation that actually doesn't have a better standard of living than their parents did. I've heard that as well.
Speaker 2:That being said, I did do. I don't gosh. I don't even know where I come up with some of the things that I've heard that as well. That being said, I did do um, I don't gosh. I don't even know where I come up with some of the things that I've become aware of, like I was talking about earlier.
Speaker 2:I need to stop for a while because I'm starting to experience mental overload with just too much stuff. But the, the what we would consider most economically challenged subgroup within the United States, is still the 18th wealthiest people group in the world.
Speaker 6:Yeah, and this is exactly my point, that it's wealthy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have no idea actually what struggling financially is.
Speaker 6:There's a talk show that I used to listen to who they used to call it affluenza. It is the natural, predictable results of an affluent society and that does not mean that it shows up in an individual's life necessarily. Right, an individual might feel that they're struggling, but as a society we are affluent, we are an incredibly affluent society, and so of course we end up having children later and less, because in our society children are, and this is not just because I think, but this is one reason society children are. And this is not just because I think, but this is one reason. In our culture, in our society, children are a liability, not an asset. They are an economic drain, they're something you have to put into. They're not an asset, they're not something that builds the overall wealth of the family and we've talked before about how rich we could be if we didn't have kids.
Speaker 6:That said, madison robbie, we love you okay, here's the other side of that and this is, and then I'll be quiet because I know we got to wrap up back to my whole like, I think, individuals, I think individual couples would be better off ignoring this, uh, this societal zeitgeist that's happening right now and getting married younger. Make a decision, make a commitment, get married to that person, have kids earlier. Part of the reason why I think that it's better is because when you say here's how much wealthy, how much more wealthy I would be if I didn't have kids, we assume that I am still the same person, but I just don't have the kids, sure, which means I still have the same jobs, I still work as hard. I used to think about this all the time when I was first starting out in the career that I'm in. Uh yeah, and this is not a career that has a salary, it is one that has to be built.
Speaker 6:And it was years and years and years and years of terror, just constant terror. And I had kids during this time. My firstborn was born six months after I started this career, and I used to think all the time about how I would balance this in my head. If I didn't have kids, I would be free to go to a lot more networking groups, I'd be free to go, do all of these different things and I could make so much more, and also I would be under such less pressure. But that's exactly it, isn't it? I would be under such less pressure and so I wouldn't do those things Right. What would I do? I'd probably just sit around, I would consume, I would be intellectual, I'd be a permanent student, you know. Yeah, so you might have actually be poor having kids. It created something in me, through a crucible, that made it so that I had.
Speaker 2:I had to make it work, right, you know all right benefits, um, of having marrying and having children younger. Summaries from the articles Okay, one is you grow and you adapt together as a young couple. That's a benefit More time for family planning. So in other words, it allows you, if you begin earlier, some flexibility to decide. Now this one says to decide whether or not you want to start a family, but I don't think that's to me that doesn't support the argument of having children younger but it's in here.
Speaker 2:Building a strong foundation and support system, more energy for parenting. Definitely.
Speaker 6:There's that yeah.
Speaker 2:So so far I'm convinced of two of the four. Four faster empty nest. I'm not sure that's a benefit.
Speaker 6:Um, I've enjoyed having my kids around yeah, um, I know people say that's, that's a uh, that's a theme on social media as well, the people who do have kids earlier being like well, now I'm in my early 50s and now we get to go travel and do our thing, which is true, but I'm with you Like I feel like that's probably going to be fun for maybe a year. Yeah. And I would be like, hey, will you guys have kids please? Yeah, Can we come over and see you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, right, you need to get started on your family, so the guy has some you know, I got some work to do.
Speaker 6:Yeah, potential, I got some work to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, potential for better health outcomes? Sure, I don't think you can actually argue that. Yeah, and then developing a stronger emotional bond and shared experiences. Okay, so 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Of the 7, I find 1, 2, maybe three of them convincing. Okay, so I'm not convinced by these arguments. All right, that having children younger is better Is better.
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not convinced by that. Also, let's just be completely honest and upfront. It's because I'm very pleased with my own personal experiences, and so it would take a lot to convince me that there could have been a better way.
Speaker 6:And also that's a rough road to go down that I don't think is beneficial to anybody. Sure, Starting to talk about I should have done. X. No, I mean I don't want, and I hope that doesn't come across at all when I'm talking about this.
Speaker 2:No, again, I think like we prefaced the whole thing. This is not judgment on any one individual. It's a discussion about in general.
Speaker 6:And also I'm thinking, when I'm talking about this kind of stuff, I am thinking about the younger generation. I am thinking about high schoolers. I'm thinking about junior hires. I'm thinking about like, what can I? How can I best help them have a picture of their future and their world? I don't want anybody who is 38 years old and weighted-.
Speaker 2:Thinking oh, I wish I should have.
Speaker 6:Thinking that I'm saying that they did it wrong.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 6:That's not what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:No, because telling anybody what they should have done-.
Speaker 6:What is the point?
Speaker 2:It's actually abuse, so it's shaming and not a healthy. I do think there is healthy shame. That might be another one that we could talk about. All right. So benefits of delay, yeah. Financial stability I have been convinced by our conversation that that is not a um, that is not a great argument, okay the economic yep, okay, I'm convinced that's not a great argument.
Speaker 2:Uh, personal growth and maturity. I still think that that might be a good one because I can. I I feel like, um, some of the some of those horrific stories I've ever heard of abuse of um newborns have been and I'm not saying this is like I have no science to back this up, I have no stats to back this up I can just say through my own personal experience, some of the most horrific stories that I've heard of abuse and killing of infants have come at the hands of very, very young parents. Sure, right, and so I do think there is something to be said for personal growth and maturity I also think that that another half an hour I would uh, I'd argue with that that's fine but I also think that, um, but I do get that I think you're you're're probably referencing an accurate stat.
Speaker 2:So I also, though, think that going back to the idea of tribe helps that one, yeah, but, that being said, that's not the reality. A reduced divorce risk I would have to look at the stats on that. I don't buy that.
Speaker 6:That having kids later somehow reduces your risk Del delaying your marriage.
Speaker 2:Delaying having kids reduces the risk of divorce yeah, I don't know about that either I don't either. And then stronger relationship foundation. I don't buy that either. So of this, I actually find only one of the four convincing for I win delaying marriage right and delaying parenthood, so where am I Do whatever the hell you want.
Speaker 6:Yeah, obviously.
Speaker 2:Right, that's kind of where I'm at. If you decide to have kids, no matter when you decide to have kids, love them with everything you have. Treat them like they're the most precious thing that you have. Don't listen to all of the parenting experts out there. Don't listen to what was that? I remember that one. What was her name? Something nanny.
Speaker 6:Super nanny, super nanny, I like super nanny.
Speaker 2:You know what I felt like super nanny was someone who didn't have her own kids and could tell everybody else how to raise theirs yeah maybe right, um, and so that's where I'm at, as far as you know, um I follow the caesar milan way of of raising kids. He's the dog whisperer, okay perfect, all right, so right so what's our common ground, Lucas?
Speaker 6:Well, is our common ground that we agree that it is affluent societies that have drops in birth rates, that it's not a result of having poor civilizations?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean just historically speaking. That's true. It's absolutely. I mean just historically speaking, that's true, it's clearly yeah.
Speaker 6:I think, well, not, I think.
Speaker 3:I know we're up against it.
Speaker 2:But let's just for a moment go to something that I think you would appreciate. Let's look at Rome. Yes, wealthy Roman citizens had less children than the plebes. Yep, absolutely there you go.
Speaker 6:It's true, it just is. It's just and it's across the board. You can see it in the statistics it is less wealthy societies that have more kids, and you can say the reasons for it whatever, but it is. We are not having less kids as a society because it's just so expensive to have kids. It's just not the case.
Speaker 2:Right, and then I know that, like you, could get into discussions, but we don't have time right now about fertility, and is our diet, is our lifestyle, actually affecting our fertility?
Speaker 6:I know my wife would like to talk about that.
Speaker 2:Both of us talked about how we struggled a little bit, all right, thanks.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.
