How We Disagree Without Losing Respect

Feeling squeezed into a corner by every conversation? We push back with a frank, funny, and steady exchange between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who’ve made a promise: stay friends, stay curious, and keep the hard questions on the table. Together we take on the urge to be right, the fear of feeling like a fool, and the hidden role ego plays when debates turn into dead ends.

We dig into whether admitting “I might be wrong” weakens belief or actually makes it more resilient. From there, the path winds through objective truth, free will, and the slippery slope of infinite regress—without losing sight of real life. You’ll hear how we use steelmanning to argue better, why certainty often sounds like contempt, and where boundaries belong when a thinker you respect starts attacking your corner. A set of original parables—the Three Witnesses—brings morality into focus with a tough case: a stolen credit card used for diapers, three lenses on justice, and the tension between empathy and consequences.

By the end, we land on a workable stance: objective truth may exist, but none of us can stand outside our own perspective to hold it fully. That simple shift cools the room, opens space for better questions, and keeps respect alive across deep differences. If you’re hungry for conversations that honor values without surrendering nuance—on faith, skepticism, ethics, and how to live together—you’ll feel at home here.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who thinks differently, and leave a quick review to help more people find common ground. Your voice shapes where we go next.

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Friendship Across Divides
• 1:05 Show Setup And Social Media Push
• 3:15 Starting Hard Conversations Online
• 6:54 Respecting People Over Being Right
• 11:33 What To Do With Disagreement
• 15:32 Objective Truth And Free Will
• 19:18 Parables, Morality, And Agency
• 24:24 Infinite Regress And First Principles
• 28:32 Relativism, Values, And Boundaries
• 32:12 Living With Uncertainty
• 35:00 Common Ground On Truth And Closing

Transcript

Friendship Across Divides

SPEAKER_05 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we left today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

But we're friends.

Show Setup And Social Media Push

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Y'all fools think that's something. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Okay. So uh I am gonna say what I just said because we were having some technical difficulties.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Say that you're gonna say it and then say it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah, well, Lucas was gonna um be the only one, you're only gonna hear one side of this entire conversation, it was gonna be just Lucas, which I can think of a couple people. I can hear a couple people that actually would prefer that. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Elena. So um anyway, uh I last the the episode that came out today, which was called God Gum Um Emery Boards. And uh um I think surprisingly surprisingly deep reflections or conversation or something like that. Anyway, um in there I said I don't have a social media account, but I do now. So that I that technically I guess rejoined the land of the living. Yeah, I won't I was told I needed uh so I have a Facebook account, but I don't have a TikTok account or a um Instagram account, and I was told by somebody that I needed a TikTok account, to which my my comment was, but I don't dance.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I we deleted TikTok like four years ago. What is the purpose of TikTok? It's the exact same thing as Instagram, except um uh from from what I can tell, trends tend to start on TikTok. Maybe they start somewhere else first. You know, if you're really if you're really like in the know, if you're like a gen alpha or something, yeah. Um, but they seem to start on TikTok, then they pour it over into Instagram, okay, and then they fall from there into Facebook, and then at some point Sean Hannity talks about it, and you know it's all over.

Starting Hard Conversations Online

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Sure. Um well I so all I am is on the I guess the end of that whole trajectory, except Sean hasn't talked about my stuff yet. Um but uh I I'm uh I'm trying to get conversation started, is what I'm actually trying to do. And um that will have constructive results.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

I have I have such a I'm I I have such a uh um what is the right word? It's like a um reflex. Yeah, it's a reflex. It's such a reflex when I see your questions.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah. Well, you haven't commented on any of them.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Yeah, I almost did like three times and then I deleted them because I don't feel like it's um uh helpful.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

That's how I feel about everything I've written prior to like recently.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, but like every time I see it, I think, well, you know what the right answer is that you Me? Yeah, the way that they're the way that they're phrased.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

So you're so you are you accusing me?

SPEAKER_02 4:10

No, I'm not I'm not accusing you. I'm saying is every time uh that I see the question, I want to come in and be like, well, maybe the other way. I gotcha, which is a pain. This is this is why we've had this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

That's what I love about this. That's why I'm a pain. Okay, so I want to say this too. I want to give you and uh Krista both some props for a moment. Uh, because the thing that you say is a pain is actually the thing that is forcing me to do all the work I'm doing right now. Okay. Because you have gotten me thinking so much that I have to get it out. And the the interesting thing is, and so this started last year, right? All of the I mean, our podcast has been going on almost two years. Two years now, yeah. Yeah. Um, but all of the all of the writing stuff began last year because I um I needed to get my thoughts out because I um I was driving myself insane trying to keep track of them.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Right. And so so that started. And then and then I realized that what we all right, what what we started doing is was just because I enjoy it and I was selfishly trying to figure out how could I spend more time with Lucas and actually get on his calendar. Right. And so that's what I did. But then I began to realize that what we were doing beyond my own selfish motivations, was actually something that was important. And um, and then I realized I actually finally had something that I that I had written that I thought was worth sharing. And then from there, I thought, um, I I need to, you know, I jokingly um to JB, I said, uh, I I've I've finally come out of the closet. Um, and uh, and I'm not hiding behind, you know, living on common ground or whatever. I'm just fully owning up to these are my thoughts, and this is where I'm at, and this is what I'm trying to do. So anyway, so the social media thing, the Facebook thing is trying to get some genuine conversation started.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Um, and then it just so happens that the episode that came out today kind of talks more about what what's been going on.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yeah, which is good. I think that um the conversations that you're trying to start are are they're good conversations. I say it tongue in cheek. I mostly am talking about my pain in the butt um uh just uh temperament. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Um, of like but but uh yeah, all that to say that's but that's the that's the thing that causes me to grow.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

If you just if you're just like, yeah, Jeff, that's brilliant, that would suck.

Respecting People Over Being Right

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Well, right. You have a never-ending font of the opposite of that. Yeah. No, I like the I I I I think the the questions that you're asking are good questions. So I think they're good conversations. So I want to run through I want to say that on the record. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Well, um, thank you. I want to run through some of the things that were said, and because because people have taken the time to uh to respond, and I want to, if they're listening, I want to give them an opportunity like to hear sort of I mean, I've tried to reply to them, but uh, you know, one of the things was uh the the first one was does admitting I might be wrong strengthen my faith or weaken it and why? And um, and so you know, we got things uh a lot of people said they felt like it strengthened it. Um and then uh Elena's the right answer.

SPEAKER_02 7:31

Well, maybe. Um, which makes me want to say, well, what's the steel man on the other side then?

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

It's okay. Uh and then Elena was very honest and said that she doesn't know, but it does strengthen her kids' faith because they love when they ask her questions that she can't answer them.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Um, and then uh I liked the uh the example that she gave, though, of what's that of how she said they love asking me questions about scripture. Well, she said that it kind of went off the rails. Maybe this is a different question.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Because one of her kids was mad uh that they lost their what was it, the soccer game when they prayed. Uh-huh. They prayed, yeah. And they didn't think that the other side probably prayed as much. Right. And I I almost asked the question well, like, are we sure that one of the kids on her kids' soccer team didn't make God angry? I mean, like, right, are we positive?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Right. Are you certain? Yeah. Um, so I thought that was good. And then um uh I liked how uh Rachel took it and said that um it's not just like this faith, but everything should be able to stand up to scrutiny, like physical structures, friendships, marriage, faith, and and so much more. I thought that was really good insight. Um, and so anyway, got a lot of good responses, and then uh and then I did my first ever uh reel. Okay, yeah. That was that right? That's what they're called.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Gosh, we're old, man.

What To Do With Disagreement

SPEAKER_00 9:05

I know. And um, that's okay. And I know. Uh and again, got got great responses from that. I wish that um that that particular um that particular question wasn't specifically faith. And I know that you know the first one, it was a lot of faith. And uh, and so I heard from a lot of my my friends that are believers. What I am hoping though is that a lot of my friends who are not believers, like Gary, who has already jumped right in the conversation, that that I could get more of them to jump into. So uh, and that I guess that would include you. But um, so Monica said, I can't wait to see answers here uh to the question. And um, and I'm trying to watch the end uh um so the question is uh how do you explain it when someone you respect deeply believes something you think is completely wrong? And um and so that's kind of well you lose respect for them and move on with your life, right? Um, so a lot of people talked about asking questions. Uh some people talked about just completely avoiding it. Um and uh anyway, um I think we talked about asking questions here before, right? And then my friend John, who I haven't talked to in years, I was so glad to see him joining in. And um, and he he says this he says, uh there are a lot of layers to this onion, Jeff. Your question made me immediately think of two people that are polar opposites in beliefs, to the point of anger/slash rage in defending those beliefs. But both of these people are genuinely good humans, the kind that would and have helped those in need without hesitation, people that I could call on any time. Are they both right, both wrong, somewhat right? I don't know. The only thing I can say they have in common is that they are both adamant, which kills conversation and compromise. And now I'm sitting here thinking, what topics do I refuse to persuade to be persuaded or changed my mind on? And then he writes, go volse. So anyway, question correct, that's the correct uh statement. So there's a lot of questions. There's a lot of things about uh the importance of friendship and valuing people over being right. Um, so so what about it? What for you? What seems to be the thing that um how how do you explain it when someone you respect deeply believes something you think is completely wrong? Um what do you do with that?

SPEAKER_02 11:45

What do I do with that? I mean, um I I will say that I have and I I mentioned this on a previous episode that um uh that there is a part of my temperament that would rather be right than happy, um for sure. And um I think uh if I'm honest with myself, would rather wants to I want people to know that I have the right perspective, the correct perspective. And I'm okay with saying maybe I don't have the right perspective, but I am but I should always be in constant pursuit of the correct perspective. That is my temperament. That's my sure that's kind of like a driving a driving force for me. And I think that that is something that um I should be aware of, and it is it's good for me to temper that part of myself. It's not a great part of myself. I I think that it could probably contribute to good things, but also it can contribute to ugly things as well. And so um something that I just have to keep in the front of my mind as much as possible. I don't want to feel like a chump.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

That reminds me of a song.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

I really don't. It's it's a it is a it's a core deep in my gut kind of feeling. I don't know that I would call it a value. It's uh it's a drive. I don't want to feel like a chump. I don't want to feel like I I got tricked into something. I got the wrong I had the wrong position, you know. Um again, I think that contributes to some ugliness, which is why I try to I I think that I should try to keep it in my mind so that I can I can work on it.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Okay, so so let me tell you what I think I heard you say and tell me um how I'm wrong. Okay um and then you'll have to just correct me if I misunderstood. So in other words, uh you and I'm gonna rephrase it, but tell me if I catch it. So there is a uh um, you have your you have your beliefs, um and and you're fairly certain, but you keep open to that maybe you're not, and so you hear other things, but then it causes you to continue to question and continue to search because you don't want to be wrong. And and and there's this, and and so I'm gonna add this to there's a certain amount of uh desire for intellectual honesty that's taking place.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

So that's a very nice way of putting it, a desire for intellectual honesty. The other uh way that you could describe it uh that I think would just be as correct is that um it is that is how my ego is um manifest. Uh it's very egoic, if that's a word. It's very it is now. It's uh it's very um yeah, it's it's it's very much a manifestation of my ego. Um yes, I I think all of that's I think all of that's right. I want to know more so that I know the correct things.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Okay. The correct things. So are you saying that there is such a thing as objective truth?

SPEAKER_02 15:32

So um we've we've talked about this so many times.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Have we?

SPEAKER_02 15:41

I think we have.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I don't feel like we have. Um, are you saying that this podcast has run its course? We've got nothing left to say.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Here is uh I will never not have anything else to say. Okay. Um uh here is the best way that I can describe my position on objective truth. I don't know from what perspective I would stand in order to ever know what that was. I don't know how I would ever be able to stand outside of my own perspective. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Um so in the real the most real sense, I can't understand the idea of objective truth. Okay, and within my experience, I live as if there is objective truth because that is part of my experience.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Right, because you seem to be seeking it.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah, it's the same thing, it's the same thing as free will. I don't understand the concept of free will in a real sense. And I live as if I have free will because that is the only way that I've ever experienced life. That's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

I don't, I don't, I can Can I introduce you to compatibilism? Um, I'm not going to right now. But I will say uh since Krista challenged me on Sunday to write uh that parable. Yeah. Well you and you saw it. Yeah. And you saw also the 10 discussion questions that go with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Yeah, I haven't uh read through it yet. That's fine. But I saw it. That's fine.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Yeah. Um I've written another one that I haven't put out there yet. Um, and it's on um free will and morality. Uh-huh. And so it's the same three people. By the way, I changed their names from the one I sent Chris to um the three friends. Yeah. So, okay, real quick, I'm writing parables right now. Uh, I've only gotten two and a half done.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Because Jeff sees himself as modern day Jesus.

Parables, Morality, And Agency

SPEAKER_00 17:55

What? Godness grace. I hope that someone just clips that. Yeah, that's good. Just clips. Jeff sees himself as modern day Jesus, and then that goes viral because that would be horrible. Uh-huh. So um, and then it spend the rest of my life having to explain that statement. Thank you, Lucas. You're welcome. So um the it's called the Three Witnesses, and um, each parable has the same three people. And what I'm trying to do through those parables is explore some um some philosophical uh hot topics that seem to be um surfacing right now, right? And um, and so the the one that I just uh finished writing is um there's a guy, and by the way, this is based on a on a real experience a friend of mine had. Um, but so there's three people. One of the and I've changed their names, I think, from when I sent it to Krista. Uh one of them, his name is Um Al. Who I've uh Al Nonimous. No, it helps me actually by name by naming them this, it helps me keep them in character as I'm writing. So Al is is Albert Einstein. Okay. Okay. So he has sort of the scientific worldview. Yeah. Right. Uh Walt, Walt Whitman, yeah. The poetic artistic look at the world. Yeah. And then Marcus, uh-huh, who is uh named after Marcus Aurelius, yeah, who is a little more philosophical. All right, but the twist to the whole thing is Marcus is also blind. Yeah. Right. And um, ooh, I could explore justice with blind. Anyway, um, well, I guess I kind of do with the morality and the free will. So the story that I'm using, and but I do want to get back to the conversation we're having, and I I just die, I'm digressing, but is this. Um, and you're the one that opened this up when you talked about it. Um, I think you said something about objective morality, or I'm just making stuff up at this point. But um, three friends, and Marcus has been at a restaurant and he leaves his credit card on accident, and the waitress uses the credit card to buy groceries, diapers, and baby wipes. And he when he fig when he figures out where he had left his credit card, he goes back. The owner of the restaurant fires the waitress, who the reason that she did that is because she's finding herself in a financial, financially difficult place because her boyfriend has left her with this two-year-old child. Sure. And she's trying to make it a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah, would you steal bread to feed your kid?

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Right. And and this is a true story. Like this happened to my friend, right? Um, and so the owner says, Do you want to press charges? And Marcus in the parable uh says, Let me think about it. And so he calls his two friends, Al and Walt, and the three of them eat at a coffee shop and he asks them. And then that opens us up to the conversation about free will and morality. So anyway, I it's great. I enjoyed that one. There is a so back to the fact that you do believe in objective truth. Yeah. Right. Well, you you answered my you you actually answered my second question because this the second question is um you you I have live as if.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Right? But you can't um but you can't understand or you can't imagine how it could be anything other than subjective. Because that was my next question. Because I was because I was seeing a circular yeah, it is circular, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Logic. It is. There's not there isn't this is where I've come to. Um and and actually, you know what's interesting? I was just about to say when you were talking about your little parable thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Um I'm surprised you didn't say your cute little parable thing. Because that would have sounded completely dismissive.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Really great condescending, didn't it? Yeah, I appreciate it. I didn't mean it like that.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

I appreciate that dumb little project you're working on, Jeff.

Infinite Regress And First Principles

SPEAKER_02 21:54

I wish that I had meant it like that. That would have made that would have made it better. Anyway, um in um uh during my um undergrad. I don't know why I said undergrad. I don't have a master's degree. I don't know why I said that. Uh all my friends always have master's degrees. I'm the only one that does have a master's degree. Um uh sorry. Um during uh in in one of my um philosophy classes, um, I don't remember which one it was. Might have been our logic class. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Um, we wrote a book called Who's to Say? And I still have it. It's fantastic. It's a little pamphlet book, and it's essentially a parable. Um, and it is it's five friends who are on a ski trip, and that part of it's kind of hokey because they have to like make it like it's like they're they have like banter about going skiing, which is dumb. Because the whole point of it is discussing relativity, it's a discussion about relativism. What's it called? Who's to say? It's a book that I have thought that I have um uh suggested for like our book groups, but it's a it's it it would be uh it'd be for some committed people. Like it's not, it's um uh it's good, it's good. I like it a lot. Um, but the reason that I'm bringing it up is because um I that is where I first got introduced to this idea of like how would I get outside of my perspective in order to look at my perspective, in order to see true objectivity. Um and as soon as the question is asked, it's it it this is the correct use of this phrase, it begs the question. Um, it answers its own question, right? Um and but it's it's written in the same same way as what you're doing, you know, um with your cute little parables. Um and I think that it's again, I mean, I could I just don't in the philosophical discussion these answers seem inescapable to me. Right. For instance, the the skeptics argument of all argument being subject to one of circular reasoning or infinite regress, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Describe infinite regress.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Um logic is based on argument. You make an argument, that argument must have grounds, those grounds must have evidence, okay. The grounds for all arguments are another argument right, yeah. Which require grounds, which is another argument, which require grounds. That's infinite regress. You always have to back it up by something that has to be backed up itself.

SPEAKER_00 25:01

Okay, so finish your thought and then I've got thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

So my my point being that I've never I've never um uh encountered any um uh uh any counter argument to that that was compelling to me. Um you know, it just seems inescapable, you know, this this um framework in the same way that I think objectivity being something that is that that seems unattainable on a on a philosophical level is inescapable. Um I I think that even and and this has been pointed out, even the scientific method relies on a priori positions and intuitions. And I think it it it um is a very is probably the best framework to understand the uh the world, the scientific method. But even that is like I said, even that is is um you know, at its base, um requires some some level of intuition, which is not objective. It's it's it where we find ourselves, right? You know. Um so that's where we are. Uh do you want me to answer your question? I've been thinking about this. You want me to answer your question about what what I do about the uh person who I respect who has a a wrong opinion?

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Can I just point out that the language itself might betray the lack of respect? All right, go ahead.

Relativism, Values, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_02 26:57

No, I've been thinking about this because I um uh I think most of the time if I respect someone and then they they have a um a position that I find um that I find incorrect that I don't agree with, most of the time I can set it aside. Most of the time I can most of the time I kind of like it. It's enjoyable. Like I think about, for instance, I'm gonna use um, I'm gonna use two examples that are non-personal on purpose. So one is Daryl Cooper, who I respect greatly, and also uh he has um quite a bit of disdain for libertarianism. He talks about libertarians as if they are the um the the family member, the cousin that he loves, but I mean, you know, obviously they they've gone off the rails, you know, or they haven't matured enough. Right, right. And I like it. I like that it's enjoyable to me, you know, partly because when he talks about them, when he talks about libertarian principles, people, whatever, he kind of talks about it in the same way that I'm talking about his position, right? With a with a wink and a smirk, and like they know they haven't grown up, they'll come around. And that allows me to be like he knows he's trying to deny what's real, you know what I mean? Like I we can all be in the same family, quote unquote family.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Um there's another um uh personality, online personality named James Lindsay, that I that I have followed quite a bit for the last, I don't know, six, seven years, something like that, who I really respected as well. And he has had a he is um turned against a portion of his base, I would say, portion of his audience that I fall into in the last year or so, but in a way that's not with a wink and a smile, right? In a way that's like, no, I don't want you. And so that's a situation where like it's not that I that he just has a position that I think is wrong, it's um that he won't stop talking about it. So I guess that is a um that's two examples of if if I respect someone, but they have a position that that I don't agree with that I think is is incorrect, wrong, but if it's just a portion that then I kind of then it's enjoyable. You know? Yeah. Then it's like a it's the salt in the chocolate chip cookie for me. You know, like that brings out the rest of the relationship.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

I like that. I like that image. Yeah, that analogy.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

Um, so anyway.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Yeah, so there's a there it and the two the two differences, the two examples you gave, there's um, I would say that the one, there remains a level of respect.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

The other one falls into uh a beginning of at least the beginning of, if not outright, full disrespect of the other person's position. So like either one of them, if you met them, one of them would still show you respect. The other one would explain to you why you don't, and I and I'm I'm taking it to extreme. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. But why you don't deserve respect anymore. Yeah. Right. And so I think that there's something to be said about that. And then that does open it up another part of our conversation in that what do you do when you're trying to be respectful and other people um don't return the same um courtesy. And and so I think that's interesting too.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Um you then you do the Mel Robbins let them, I think.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yes, good, that's a good one. Mel Robbins.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Yeah, because they're their actions are not my responsibility. My actions are my responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah, and now you've dipped your toe into stoicism too. So beautiful. Yeah, all the good things. So, okay, so here's the thing objective truth. Uh, I want to go back there for a second. The sub this idea, and I also want to talk a little bit about the uh um infinite regression, uh, regress? Yeah, okay. Infinite regress. Infinite regress. Circular reasoning or I can't read, I can't read my own handwriting. Uh-huh. Um, okay, so objective truth, the problem that I think that comes with objective truth is that it goes hand in hand with certainty.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Right. And so because too many times I've heard people, and then so the problem then is if I could, if I can in my own, I'm doing this for myself, right? I'm I'm reframing all this for myself. Because I'm thinking about all the different things.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Yeah.

Living With Uncertainty

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Right. Um, the problem with certainty then is that you believe that you actually hold the objective truth. That's sure. That not only is there objective truth, but you have it.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

Yeah. Oh you'd need to. You'd have to hold it. It's it's important.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

You have to know it. Sure. Right. And and that's I think that's where a lot of the breakdown takes place, right? Like, so like I watched a conversation last week between um different persons. And um, and one of them was trying to explain to the other person that, but you you can you at least acknowledge that that's your your understanding, like that is the way you understand it. And and their response was, no, that's the truth.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

All right. So that's I think that if you I think once you end up there, um, the ability to engage in conversation dies. And so even even even in the moments where you try, so I think that it's so I think that what I'm what I'm hearing from you is even though it's circular, right? Um, that you that you see that you live in such a way that you're you're seeking objective truth, even though you don't understand how it could like philosophically, you don't understand how it could exist, the fact that you don't understand how it could exist, that you don't understand how it could be anything other than subjective, allows you to continue to have conversation. The problem is if you firmly believe that objective truth is philosophically uh possible and you have it, then that that kills it. That that kills the ability. I think not only does it kill the ability to have a conversation, it also kills the ability for the individual who now holds that certainty to actually grow. They may not even feel they need to.

Common Ground On Truth And Closing

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Yeah, but I I just want to I I want to steel man the position for those who because I those who um would not only say objective truth can be known, but that that I do know it. You know, I I think that um there is a concern that if you if you were to hold the position that objective truth is not obtainable, that there are too many catastrophic ramifications from that. Um and so you know the the term relativism, I think, gets used as a um as a pejorative, which is understandable, I think. Um and and it's I think that that's because there is a real concern about what happens if you if you take the position that um that objective truth doesn't exist. And you can imagine, for instance, someone saying, well, if there is no objective reality, if there's no objective truth, then there is no basis for saying, for instance, that abusing women is wrong. That maybe it's just a person's culture, or that abusing children is wrong, or that racism is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

If there's not an objective truth, then yeah, and I would say that that's where then we get into this infinite regress, because I would argue with the a priori. Yeah, but that but that's that that objective truth is necessary for those things.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Okay. Why why would you think that objective truth would not wait well just just I just again I wanna I want to say that because I buy into evolutionary biology. Okay, yeah, and that's and that's fine. I have a different different thing that I stand on uh for these. Um but I but what I would say is that like the the reason that I'm using these particular examples is that I do think that the the term objective truth tends to get used to to describe the position of, for instance, like conservative evangelical, um traditional fundamentalist, whatever you know, term you want to use to that type of religious person. But I think that I hear it just as much with someone who would consider themselves to be progressive or left-leaning or whatever. Um, because again, you you can hear it if you get into certain conversations, you will hear someone say, Well, yeah, but we can all agree though that for instance racism is wrong. Okay, what are we doing there? We are stepping back and going, whoa, but there is an objective truth, and this is the objective truth, right?

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Um, and so I'm not saying that to dismiss that position. What I'm saying is I can understand the concern that everyone would have with dismissing this uh idea of objective truth. It feels like a solid rock that we're standing on. And if we get rid of that solid rock, there is no limit to the depths that we could fall.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Sure. Right. And that was the that was the argument that I heard. And they said that the only logical conclusion, which I always love that is nihilism, which I don't think that's true either. Which I actually don't have any problem with because I like nihilism.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah, right. Anyway, I do, I do. I think nihilism gets the wrong, the bad, uh, a bad rap. But anyway, let's continue.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

I think I think our next episode we're gonna talk about nihilism.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

And I and I like that you call it nihilism. That's how my wife pronounces it too. I've always pronounced it nihilism, but um like annihilate. It's it's tomato tomato. It is tomato tomato, and uh, I've heard plenty of people pronounce it.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

And I had someone try to correct me recently when I said uh Nietzsche, and they said Nietzsche, and I said, No, I'm pretty sure it's Nietzsche. So anyhow. Wow, with a E. With an E. They pronounced it Nietzsche. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and I was like, Nietzsche. But okay, so anyway.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

So going back though, just a second.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yep, yeah, because we're gonna talk about next episode, we're gonna talk about nihilism.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Okay. I um do not keep this is something I've been thinking about a lot. And I I'm gonna say it for myself, but I think this applies to everyone personally. I do not keep these philosophical ideas in the front of my mind 100% of the time. That's not how I live my life.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

It's a healthier way to live than what I'm doing right now.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

I don't think you do either. I think when you go through your life.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

I think, but I think I'm in a fail, and that's why I said what I do right now. Because right now, in the like in the last few weeks, I have not been able to get out of my own philosophical way.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yeah, I understand. I understand what you're saying. I do understand what you're saying. And and I just uh the way that I just worded that sounded like I was telling you what you do with your life. And that's not what I meant.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

What I mean is you're not yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 39:53

What I mean is if you if if I really sit and think about the myriad of activities that I participate in a day, I mean it's trillions. I was thinking about this when I was driving up here, right? Like just just picking up something, the the act of picking up something is like a billion actions within one, right? In terms of all the muscles and the tendons and the nerves and and the thought processes and and all of that. Just that. So I don't I don't sit and and go, um, now I'm sitting in in at this stoplight and I'm inching up, but I'm thinking about um object is this objectively what I don't I live my life in a just uh responding to to stimuli. And um and so I don't I don't sit here going, well, I don't I don't uh believe in objective truth, so there is no objective truth. And so then I have to evaluate to uh yeah on what basis uh do I determine right now that I'm not gonna steal this uh you know this drink off the shelf in the grocery store? No, I don't. You know what I do? I go, I don't because stealing's wrong. Well, why is it wrong, Lucas? I don't know, because it is. That's the end. That's the thing that I stand on that I that I walk through, because it is. Is it? Is it wrong? Is it wrong, Mr. Person who's asking me that? Is it not wrong? Do you really not think it's wrong? Really? Okay, because here's the thing. If you don't think it's wrong to steal that that drink off the shelf, then I want you put outside of my society, and that's it. Well, on what basis do you have a right to do that, Lucas, if there's no objective reality? I don't know. I just think it should be. So do it. That's the end. That's the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Okay. Right? So let me okay. One last thought because we're or we're up against it. Yeah. So what if this, and maybe this will just make everyone mad, which is sometimes I think our goal. Um, what if we say, okay, objective truth may exist. But I'm but I'm not convinced that any person, that it's attainable for any person.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Yeah, that that I have no problem with that. May exist is a totally fine um uh philosophical uh premise as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

So we found common ground? Yeah, that's fine. Perfect. Because I don't think we were ever off of common ground. Yeah, but it was good. All right, thanks. There you go.

SPEAKER_05 42:45

Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.