When Ideas Evolve, Do We?

Start with a simple question: when your world divides you into teams, how do you stay friends across the line? We stress-test that question by putting our own friendship on the table—a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist—and then follow the thread from art museums to ancient theology to modern Stoicism. The journey is winding, but it holds together: what you focus on, how you practice, and which stories you trust will shape the way you live.

We trade museum stories first, including a “headless” dog in a Dalí painting that was there all along if you looked closely enough. That becomes our metaphor for interpretation: certainty can be a costume for inattention. From there we dive into discipline—early mornings, 500 lines, writing before scrolling—and why Stoic ideas like temperance and craftsmanship help us create instead of perform. Social media exits and anxiety have their place, but we talk about building sustainable habits rather than chasing extremes.

Then we go deep on belief. Does faith evolve because God reveals more, or because humans understand differently? We track the arc from henotheism to monotheism, exile to meaning-making, and how cultures borrow from neighbors—Persian influence on Sheol included. Along the way we question whether development always equals progress. Maybe some changes are side steps. Maybe monotheism gained moral focus and lost mythic nuance. We argue for intellectual hospitality: diverge to gather, converge to decide, then repeat. Science, philosophy, and theology are not rivals but lenses that help us see reality from complementary angles.

If you’re tired of being told to pick a side, this conversation offers a third way: rigorous curiosity with good faith. Listen, reflect, and tell us what belief, habit, or assumption you’ve reframed lately. Subscribe, share with a friend, and drop a review—help more people find common ground without dumbing anything down.

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https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Chapters

• 1:16 Marker 1
• 1:16 Marker 3
• 1:18 Marker 4

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04: 0:35

But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_01: 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they are living in a dog. Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all! And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

SPEAKER_06: 1:16

Alright. Now that we're done talking about art and everything else. Well, speaking of all that, have you we um have you uh have you ever been to Madrid?

SPEAKER_05: 1:29

No. Spain? No. No. The only place I've been in Europe is Italy. And I had a layover flight on my way to Africa one time in um uh Belgium. Uh-huh. But all I saw of Belgium was what I flew over and what I was able to see out of the windows of the airport. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know?

unknown: 1:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:48

I was just bringing up because we took the kids to see the w in the Raina Sophia um museum. They have like all the fame it's like, I guess, the really famous artists. And like what's the one that um did some famous artist did the um he did a lot of stuff, but then there's one where he does the um he painted the the conser uh when oh um the king of the titans was eating his would eat his children. Oh, Dagas. Is that who it is? Yeah. And it's like he's holding it, he's holding his. It's very it's very creepy, but also like it's clearly well, it's a Greek, it's the Greek mess or whatever. I really liked that artist. Yeah, it's very cool.

SPEAKER_05: 2:40

It's very 99% sure that was Dagas like that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, he um I think he was great. I also think um Salvador Dolly for a while was one of my favorites. Dolly was cool. Yeah, there was a Dolly Museum in St. Petersburg when I lived there. Uh it may still be there, I don't know. But I remember um taking dates there. And uh That's a high risk maneuver, man. Oh, I was you know, whatever. And uh I remember one time we were going through the uh the I can see how that'd be impressive. Would it? Yeah. Yeah. Um be well, I mean if you could speak about the paintings at all. Well, at one point, like I was with a girl and we were walking through and we could hear the tour guy talking. Yeah, and he was pointing to a particular painting. It was one of it was one of Dolly's earlier paintings. Yeah. Where he hadn't gotten like really like with the melting clocks and stuff yet.

SPEAKER_04: 3:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 3:36

And uh and he pointed to this picture, and it was a kind of like a landscape type of thing with people, but it had people in it.

SPEAKER_04: 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 3:42

And um, and he said, and no one knows why he made the dog without a head. And I looked at the girl I was with and I was like, the dog has a head. Uh-huh. That can't be in his script. He just made that up because the dog has a head. And she was like, You need to tell everybody on the tour that the dog has a head. And I was like, I'm not gonna step in. Contradict the tour guys. But as soon as they walk away, I'll show you how he portrayed the dog's head. Uh-huh. And uh and all it is is the dog is turning backwards. Uh-huh. And you know, a dog can turn its head.

SPEAKER_02: 4:14

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 4:15

Where so the you had to look closely, but the dog's head is like in his body, basically. Over the yeah. But the but you could see clearly if you if you studied the painting that the dog's head is there, it's just turned. And this this person on their own as a tour. And it and it did back in the day, that bothered me.

SPEAKER_06: 4:35

Oh man, that is making me think it would be amazing to completely straight faced get people to come on a tour with you, with me, like for me to go give a tour in some art museum and just make up everything all the way through.

SPEAKER_05: 4:52

I wondered, like, I was I was thinking about following the guy, right? Because I was like, I wonder what else he's great. I wonder what else he's telling these people. Uh-huh. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And so I think this guy probably was thought, oh, you know, I know this isn't in the script, but I boy, I'm just gonna. And I was like, yeah. So anyway, yeah, the girl I was with at the time, was that impressive to her? I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. I never really thought about that. All I know is that it was something work. I enjoyed. I I've always enjoyed art. I have learned that not all women enjoy the same things I enjoy. Really? Yeah. In fact, I'm married to one right now. I think that's something that is a good idea for most men to realize very early on. I'm married, you know. I mean, obviously, Denise and I have a lot in common. Uh-huh. But we also have a lot of things that we don't have in common. You know, and so I'll read something and I'll be like, you really need to read this. Uh-huh. And then eventually I'll just take it back.

SPEAKER_06: 5:51

I have to I have no experience with this at all. Everything that I uh that that I find fascinating, Krista finds equally fascinating. So I bet. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05: 6:03

Yeah, I've heard about you going on and on and on about the Roman Empire with with Krista and how much she enjoys it. So do my kids. Yeah, in fact, I love it. I think that if you really love them tonight when you get home, you're gonna just start talking to them about uh some some actually You don't have to communicate. Just some just some remote Roman person, right? And just just go what just wax eloquent about about the contribution that they made to the uh to the Roman Republic. Like not even the Empire stuff, like most of us are familiar with. Go back to the republics. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04: 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 6:36

All right. All right. But speaking of reading things, um, how's that for segue into it? Okay. So um I've been doing a lot of work, a lot of writing. In fact, uh, before we started recording, I mentioned that I'm um I've been doing a lot of read well, this isn't a shock, I think, to most people. I've been doing a lot of reading lately about Stoicism, like for the last while now. Right. Um, and uh I just I just finished and started my fifth and sixth book on Stoicism. Not I'm not writing that. I'm not not I'm not um I can't do that. You finish read reading reading books about it. And um, and and one of the things, one of the books I'm uh that the one that I'm currently reading is called uh The Life of the Stoics, Lives of the Stoics, I think. Yeah. And um it's co-authored by Ryan Holiday and and and another person. Oh, okay. And um, but it it's not so much um like sort of the you know how he does like a lot of those motivational self-help type of stoic things. It's not it's more of a history book. Yeah. But they still include like the contributions that they've made and and sort of how you can be inspired by their lives. Anyway, one of the things in there is a couple times he mentioned how some of these guys have um committed to writing 500 lines a day.

SPEAKER_06: 7:46

Yeah. And so I've um as a as like a discipline.

SPEAKER_05: 7:50

Yeah. And so as a discipline, I have sat down and I will write um for uh if if I can keep track of the lines, 500, but to be honest with you, more for me, it is for a period of time. Yeah, sure. I will write for so many hours a day. Yeah. And it is it is more than two hours a day. I will I will set aside for writing.

SPEAKER_06: 8:11

Um I remember um Elizabeth Gilbert talking about um how uh writing is a discipline. And um she uh I wish I could get this quote right because I find it to be a fantastic quote, but it's something like um I think that the an Oh man, I think that the angels are active when I'm when I'm writing early in the morning or something. It's something like that. I man, I gotta go back and get that quote because and get it exact because it's but she was talking about like when you you just have to do it and you do it regularly, and if you do that, magic happens.

SPEAKER_05: 8:55

Yeah. Oh, I I agree with that. And and and the more you do it, the better you get at it. Sure. Right. Uh and the more creative I get, the m like the more I do it. Yeah, of course. And so um, yeah, I generally get up early in the morning. Um, and the first thing I'll do is I'll make myself a cup of coffee and uh get myself a small bowl of cereal and sit down at my laptop and spend at least an hour writing. And then sometime during the day here in the office, I'll set aside at least an hour to work on some, like to work on my writing, not like a sermon.

SPEAKER_06: 9:31

How boring. You gotta start your day right by getting up and scrolling. Just doom scrolling? For scrolling and telling yourself you're only going to check everything really briefly for like five minutes, and then you're gonna get to your uh meditations and uh and journaling and reading for the day, and then find yourself there 45 minutes later when you have to wake up your kids.

SPEAKER_05: 9:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 9:54

And uh and you haven't done anything. That sounds like a great start to the day.

SPEAKER_05: 9:57

Yeah. And then in the evening. I recommend it. And then in the evening. Um I'll try to set aside at least another hour or so to write. So not to scroll. No. No. No. Because I have found that um scrolling actually creates more anxiety for me. Does it? It does. So um okay, but I say all that to say uh one is uh I I deleted all my apps again.

SPEAKER_06: 10:22

Did you? Today. Good for you.

unknown: 10:24

Good for me.

SPEAKER_06: 10:25

It is my it's my cycle. This is what I'm doing because I got two.

SPEAKER_05: 10:29

I know that you appreciate the stoics. Yeah, I do. And so I would encourage you to think about um temperance. Yeah. Right? What would that look like when it comes to social media? I think that's a good thing to think about. And you smirk. All right. So anyway. I don't I don't mean to. I know. No, it's okay. It's okay. I uh I love you and I know you well enough to know that um it's all fun. So um and uh so some things have happened. Uh I got I I actually got this week a few unsolicited uh subscribers that have started. Oh cool. And um and some people I don't even know.

SPEAKER_06: 11:08

On your Substack?

SPEAKER_05: 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 11:10

Good.

SPEAKER_05: 11:10

And um, and it's all still for free. The Substack. I I haven't started any sort of like um membership or anything like that because I'm still just trying to get things out there and and I don't need the money. Um well I don't need I have a full-time job. Um but someone I don't know actually commented on one of my posts recently. Uh-oh. No, it was great. Okay. Yeah, it was um and he was like, this makes way more sense than and I'm not gonna get into what I was writing about, but yeah, uh way more sense. And then he and then he pointed out the uh Persian influence on um the Jewish understanding of um of uh uh what's the word? And um not hell, it's one of the precursors. Um anyway. Uh uh shol, yeah. And um the underworld. Because one of the things I was writing about is how we uh we develop the our theological concepts develop over time. And and I said, actually that's a and I saw I responded and I was like, yeah, actually that's a perfect observation that you're making because we also don't process even in internal processing is not done in a vacuum. It obviously is influenced by the cultures around us and the people around us, and so anyway, but it was I was really excited that someone else um other than people that I know have started interacting with the stuff because I feel like I feel like um I feel real inspired to do the work. And I was thinking about stoicism again too, and um and one of the things so I just finished reading um again Ryan Holliday's book, uh Discipline is Destiny. And um and he talks in there about we do the work because we enjoy the work.

unknown: 13:01

Right?

SPEAKER_05: 13:01

We're not worried about whether or not we'll get famous from it or whatever. And I thought about all of the work that I'm doing right now, and I thought I enjoy the work. And I think the work is really important. The work being how we bridge gaps. The the like the entire premise of this podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 13:22

So that being said, one of the things one thing I think is interesting is that you keep talking about developing theology, uh, theological development, theological evolution, whatever. And you use the term uh theolog uh theology or theological. Um and it's interesting because it to me, because I I didn't grow up with this, but in college I learned about um and and I went to a college, for those who don't know, I went to a college that was associated with my denomination. It was a liberal arts university by the time I got there, but it was church-based. It was a Christian college. And I would have bristled to um hear somebody call it a Christian college when I went there. Yeah. It's like, no, it's a liberal arts university, but come on. I mean, we went to chapel two, three times a week and we not three times a week, two times a week, and we it was it was it was church affiliated, okay. Anyway, my point being it was affiliated with the denomination I grew up with. So even though I didn't get this terminology um until college, um I really kind of latched onto it and made a lot of sense. And that was developing revelation, which is a Wesleyan, as far as I understand, kind of a Wesleyan um basically because that was my my denomination was born out of the Wesleyan holiness movement. Um and uh and so but but develop and so that was the way that many of my professors would explain the seeming con not not factual contradictions. You can find factual contradictions in the in especially like in the New Testament uh with the gospels and that kind of thing. Yeah, there's throughout the Old Testament too. Yeah, and so but that's but that's neither here nor there, and that can be explained in a lot of different ways. But really, how do you explain a God that never changes? That's supposed to be a fundamental kind of precept. Yep. God that never changes, that clearly gives di uh uh uh opposite instruction, right? And so the and the answer was developing revelation, the idea that as we changed, we would get we would understand it in different ways. But what I find fascinating, and the reason I bring it up, is because the term that was used was revelation, developing revelation, which uh which implies the giving of the information from God to humans. And I say developing understanding. You say developing the theology or developing understanding, which implies the humans going toward God, right? Or going toward this the concept or whatever. So I just think that's interesting.

SPEAKER_05: 15:59

I'm not I I'm not trying to really I guess I am trying to draw a c contrast a little bit, yeah, but I'm I I have no Well, you know, so for me, uh I think that uh when you when you look at the Bible, when you take a close look at the Bible, what you see is humans um understanding evolving or developing when it comes to uh their their attempt to grasp uh the reality that they live in. Yeah. And so um that in the in the Bible is theological development.

SPEAKER_02: 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:36

Right. Um in other in other um disciplines, it could be uh philosophical development, yeah. Right. Um and uh or scientific development.

SPEAKER_02: 16:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:48

It's all an attempt to try to explain what we what we experience and what we observe um as we live this life. And so uh just real quick, one of the examples we just did it last night in the class that I taught last night, and it actually is the one that the guy commented on. Um, even though the Bible study that I'm doing on Substack is not the same Bible study that I'm doing that I'm teaching in person. Sure. But but it just so happened last night that they almost paralleled. They converge a little bit. Yeah. And uh one of the things I talked about is the development that you see um uh from henotheism to um universal monotheism in the Old Testament. And uh um, and so what I would suggest is that because of the experiences uh and the cultures around them and uh the intellectual influences that they have, um the people that they talk to, they um their understanding of this God that they worship, Yahweh, changes over time. Right. So in the beginning when they first when they first develop as a nation, um, let's say 1000 BCE, okay, um, then they start trying to make sense of, well, then who is their God? Because all nations have a God. And so they identify their God as Yahweh, and Yahweh is the greatest of all gods. And um, and so they have they have examples, they have poems, um, they they have stories where God um meets with the council, the divine council of other gods. There's stories in there about how God has how Yahweh has assigned the gods to their different territories and given them different cities. And but God has but Yahweh has been the one to do that. And and so that's that's henotheism, right? Um, and uh it's it's different than polytheism, right? So polytheism is that there are that there's a pantheon of gods and that's and that multiple gods are worth worshiping. Right. Panatheism is that there's still a pantheon of gods, but only one is worth worshiping. And so for the early Israelites, and that shows up like in Exodus and things like that.

SPEAKER_06: 19:03

Um you just shows up with um uh Babylonians as well. Marduk with Marduk.

SPEAKER_05: 19:09

Yeah, absolutely. So and then the Babylonians is a good segue to the next development that you see theologically, and you really kind of see it in the second, like beginning in like Isaiah chapter 45 and later, of this idea of, well, just actually Yahweh is the only God. Right. And it starts with things like, well, your gods are just idols. To it gets to the point where actually they're not even like there's not even gods. Um and so what happens is you have this experience that the that the Israelites have, which is called uh, or the um really at that point, it's not not the Israelites as much, it is the Judeans. Yeah, because the Israelites have already gone with the Assyrians. But the Judeans then get c uh a little while later get captured by the Babylonians, and they're hauled off into exile. And now they have to make sense because culturally, in that That time in that area and you know in the near the Near East. Um if your God if your if your army beat my army, it meant that your God beat my God.

unknown: 20:09

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 20:09

And so how do I culture?

SPEAKER_06: 20:10

Which we laugh at, yeah, but that makes way more sense in my mind. I mean, there is a way in which that we we do that today because we have killed God, okay, um we do that with plenty of other things. We do that with, for instance, if somebody is wealthy, it is because they have worshipped the god of discipline and um I hope that works out for me, and hard work and um ingenuity and inventiveness. Or or uh if you hate the wealthy or you feel uh envious or whatever of that, they have worshiped the god of corruption and the the evil gods of corruption and deceit and um power over people and whatever, right? We have these other things that we ascribe to or or luck, which was a function of the gods. Yeah, I use the word fortunate, but yeah. Fortune. Right, fortune bold. Right. And so uh there is a there's a part of me that over the past ten years or so of studying these, you know, what we would consider like it's not pre-history, but like early, early history, historical groups. Yeah. Um I I mean that's one thing that I I love about history is trying to as much as I can let my eyes go fuzzy and try to feel like how that would feel. It's impossible, but try to do it. And there is, I mean, I gotta say, there is a sense in which it does not make sense at all to say my God is still a is still top God when I have been crushed, which is what the Israelites had to do in Babylon.

SPEAKER_05: 22:26

Yeah. Right? They had to make sense of well, okay, so Babylonians, they just they just take Yahweh and make them okay, so yeah, yeah, there's Yahweh. Sure. He's just a lesser God to Marduk. Right. Not what and and so um so the Israelites or the the Judeans are forced to figure out like well, how can we still claim that our God is the greatest God? And it came to, well, because he's the only God. And then they did this amazing thing, which I have not seen, and just it could just be because I haven't studied enough. But I haven't seen where another nation has been able to say, Well, actually, our God just used you to punish us. Right. You don't even have a God, it you didn't know it, but it was it was our God, Yahweh, use you as a tool. Right. And so that way they were able to, in their own defeat, still claim superiority of their d of their of their God. Right. Yeah. So anyway, so I think that but you can trace that like in and like you mentioned, you were taught that. And of course it was it was it was it was taught as revelation. I I think of it more in terms of um theological development.

SPEAKER_06: 23:42

Yes. Um you're getting at a very similar thing, but I think that that distinction is interesting to me. And I'm not gonna say which one I don't have I don't have any concern about right or wrong in that. I th but it's but there's clearly some little distinction there that I think is that I think is interesting to see.

SPEAKER_05: 24:03

And I either way, whether it be revelation or or uh development, human development, right? Um I think it's important to acknowledge that it's in there and not go the third way, which is just try to gloss over it or to try to make it all fit. Because that's not and that to me, that causes more problems when you just try to like you try to say there's a consistent theology over a course of a thousand years.

SPEAKER_03: 24:27

Yeah. Yeah, I that's true. And that seems well let me say that seems um clear to me.

SPEAKER_06: 24:42

What you just said seems to be clearly the case. But I wonder if that's because you and I have a similar temperament in this. Um we tend to be pretty um cerebral. Um and I and I don't mean that as a as a positive or negative, just like that's just an observation. Kind of how we approach things. Um, but that that does seem I will say also, I said that um I'm not saying which one I think is right, but um I do I do have to fall on your side as far as um saying that it's developing uh theology or developing revelation because I don't believe in revelation. Um uh so I do think that that is probably a better term, although I'd quibble a little bit. But I wouldn't really quibble in what you're doing because you're talking about uh developing theology through um a group of works that are fixed in time, namely the Bible. Um, see the development. Yeah. I don't know how much I believe in development anymore. Um, because that to me that implies an upward progression, some sort of like this continues in one in a direction. Whereas I would see it as like some sort of like just ever everyone has different conceptualizations and and you could see it develop into something that we would consider backwards 200 years from now.

SPEAKER_05: 26:07

So I I would I would push back a little bit on saying that just because something is developing, that it means it's on an upward trajection. Right. Um, because I think that I have uh I I could I could state that um I have developed a drug addiction. Well, develop the the word develop simply means that um that it that something has changed over time.

SPEAKER_06: 26:34

But when you say that even when that man, we're getting pedantic here. Um wouldn't you wouldn't you say that even in that statement I've developed a drug addiction? By the way, I've I've not developed a drug addiction. You're implying, I'm glad you stated that for the record. Just for the record. So no one can isolate it.

SPEAKER_05: 26:52

I was just trying to think. Well, because if if I had said it like I've developed a drinking problem, people might be like, that tracks. In but either one of those, sure.

SPEAKER_06: 27:00

You would you would be implying something that was smaller that got larger. It's going in a direction.

SPEAKER_05: 27:07

Yeah. But I'm saying it doesn't have to be a positive direction. No, I agree. I agree. Yeah, development is always moving some. There's a trajectory, there's a telos.

SPEAKER_04: 27:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 27:16

Right? It doesn't necessarily indicate good or bad. Sure. It just means a direction.

SPEAKER_04: 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 27:21

And so really, uh, how about this? How about this? The theological development that we see from penotheism to monotheism, uh, it could be going the wrong way. And maybe, maybe, maybe polytheism is the actual correct way of understanding. This is my point.

SPEAKER_06: 27:39

This is exactly my point. That um I have always um considered it. By the way, I don't agree with that either. I've always I have always seen it presented, and I just took it as obvious prima facie correct um that that a um let's just call it stupider. A stupider people group starts with worshiping. How about less informed? It's not what I mean though. I mean there's an implication that you're not as smart as a as a people. That could that can happen if we're not careful. Yeah. Okay, I'll give I'll give you that. No, no, no. I'm saying like I'm saying ancient past, I would concede that. I'm saying ancient past. Ancient, ancient past. So no ties to anybody who lives now. That's not I'm talking about. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying like the idea is for you for you to continue your thing, I'll concede it.

SPEAKER_05: 28:35

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06: 28:36

Okay. The idea is that um you start, you start as a pu as a as humans worshiping nature because that's what you see.

SPEAKER_05: 28:44

Sure.

SPEAKER_06: 28:45

Then you develop into um thinking, um, well, nature is is physical, but there's another world, and that's what we're gonna worship, but there's also many of them. That's polytheism. Then you move into um the henotheism that you're talking about, and then monotheism, and then that's just a progression, and then so obviously monotheism is at the top in that it's the most correct, right? Okay. And what I'm saying is that's that's what we would say. And actually, I wouldn't say that at all. And I think polytheism makes a lot more sense in a lot of situations than if I was gonna accept a uh an outside non-sort. So we're gonna be pedantic, right?

SPEAKER_05: 29:33

Right. Is that what you okay? Yeah. So what I would say is that um a couple things. One is I wouldn't say uh uh stupider. What I would say what I would say is a um is a less informed doesn't have doesn't have access to all the information uh-huh that maybe we get later on. Okay, right. And um and so as we get more information, we begin to try to process the reality that we live in through the current lenses that we have. And sometimes we realize that the lens doesn't work anymore and it needs to change for us. Right. And so that that's the development that continues to happen. It would be like saying, like you can look at a at a four-year-old kid and think to yourself, this four-year-old's brilliant. Right? Sure. But you hope that by the time that four-year-old is 14, there's been a development.

SPEAKER_06: 30:26

That they change. Well, that's right. But that's exactly what I'm saying. We always relate it to child growing into adult, which we know that is what we would expect it to grow into. What I'm saying is, what if it's just different and it's not better or less?

SPEAKER_05: 30:42

So so let me let me go back to something I said earlier.

SPEAKER_06: 30:45

I don't know why I got down there.

SPEAKER_05: 30:46

And actually, this is great because now the topic that we were gonna talk about today, that's gonna be the next week's episode. Uh, because this is fun. So here here's what I would okay. So actually, I think that the topic that we're talking about is how do ideas develop? And and if it has developed, does that mean that you were dumb holding your previous position? And I would say no. Right? Um and so uh I don't think that that I don't think that that even even needs to be implied. I think I think it has to do with um just more information. Right? So, for example, if remember how earlier I said that I think that like science um is doing is trying to is constantly trying to develop a better understanding of the world and the reality that we live in. Yeah. And that's what it's doing. It doesn't mean that the scientists that came before them were stupid. In fact, that would be a that would be a ridiculous statement to make.

SPEAKER_06: 31:46

No, but it does imply that they were ignorant.

SPEAKER_05: 31:49

And ignorant has nothing to do with uh mental capacity.

SPEAKER_06: 31:54

Agreed. But what I'm saying is what if it's not more information, but simply a different perspective. But now I'm I'm getting into postmodernism here, where uh you start um thinking that there is no um there is no real epistemological foundation for anything, which I can I can under I could hang out here for a long time. It's not where I live my life, obviously. Do we have Nietzsche to thank for that? Oh, I don't know. I think I'm well in the modern world we have Foucault to thank for the thing.

SPEAKER_05: 32:32

Where did it start from like where do we start seeing that? Um I I really enjoy Nietzsche, by the way, and I think it's a bad rap. Anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 32:40

Um so I mean I think this can this goes back to Voltaire and prior to Voltaire even and all of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 32:46

Which we would never say Voltaire was stupid. No, of course not.

SPEAKER_06: 32:49

Even though philosophically we look at him and we're like take something, take something that is close to home, though. We um we assume that democracy is better than monarchy.

SPEAKER_02: 33:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_06: 33:04

So and we go, how do we know that? Well, because we live in a democracy. Yeah. We're the best, right? Right? Right.

SPEAKER_05: 33:12

So it won. This gets into work. This gets into something that I've been I've been talking about. Um I don't I don't think I've talked on on the podcast about it. Um shameless plug. You can go to my YouTube page right now, or you can subscribe to the substack. The video comes up. Yeah, go subscribe to the substack. That's that's a a real good, that's the best place, I feel like. Thank you. It's Jeffrey Stress Off. That's my Substack at J-E-F-F F-R-E-Y.

SPEAKER_06: 33:38

And he writes and you write and pro I said he. I said if I'm doing a promo here. You I mean you you produce something on there almost every day. At least three times a week, I try. Sometimes it's only two times a week, but yeah, I try. That's a it's a it's a really good amount of content that you can you can spend a little time reading that or or listening or watching that rather than scrolling.

SPEAKER_05: 34:02

I try to keep I try to keep the writings to between 10 to 15 minutes read. That's it. Yeah. No, they're good. Yeah. And the only way I can, just as a side note, the only way that I can continue to produce that much content is that I'm I'm constantly like when it comes out is when I finish it. Like I don't start it and finish it that same day or the even the day before. Like some of these things are being they're being written right now. Like I'm writing, I'm writing right now about six different things.

SPEAKER_06: 34:29

Yeah, that's probably true for anybody who's um prolific.

SPEAKER_05: 34:32

If you're gonna have if you're gonna wanna if you're gonna want to contribute uh create content, whether it be videos, podcasts, we have to I mean, there's times but we have to record more than one podcast a day.

SPEAKER_06: 34:42

Yeah, you just gotta keep doing it.

SPEAKER_05: 34:43

Yeah. Okay, so um what we were talking about, we were talking about development. Um, so I think that the best way to have a uh uh I think that what we're talking about a little bit is the difference between convergent and divergent thinking. And so what I'm saying is that it's through convergent, it's through divergent thinking that we gather the information, and then it's through divergent thinking that we come up. Say this again because you said both of them twice. Okay. It is through divergent thinking that we gather as much information as we possibly can. We diverge from the norm. We go out and get it. We open our mind to all possibilities. To collect, right? Yes. And then we come back and we converge and we develop opinions. Sure. Right? We make decisions.

SPEAKER_04: 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 35:34

And then I would say, in fact, I have said that true wisdom is the is the ability to flow naturally between the two.

SPEAKER_04: 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 35:42

Right. Okay. So that being said, let's go back to this idea of science, theology, philosophy. Let's just take those three um disciplines. Yeah. What I would say is that they're all trying to capture sort of the same thing. Okay. An understanding of the reality that we live in.

SPEAKER_03: 36:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05: 36:02

Okay. Um, and I would even go so far as to say that uh that also determines how you live in that reality. Okay. Now I think that philosophy and theology are more concerned about the actual than meaning of it, right?

SPEAKER_06: 36:22

Because that's where they've been relegated to for the last 400 years. And I have because prior to that, they would have told you the what just as much as the why.

SPEAKER_05: 36:31

And I have no problem with that. Um, because I because here's what I'm saying. If I want to be wise, I have to look at all three of those disciplines in order to try to understand the reality I live in. Sure. And so going back to this idea of the development from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism, I think that that seems to be a correct trajectory for me because of what I've been able to gather from both philosophy and from science, from those disciplines. Now, do I think that I can then just camp in theology and and claim to know all of reality? No. In the same way, I don't think you can camp in science and say, I now understand all of reality any more than you can camp in philosophy and say, I now understand all of reality.

SPEAKER_06: 37:25

I can do whatever I want.

SPEAKER_05: 37:26

You can do whatever you want. You're absolutely right. I can't tell you what to do. And to be honest with you, I could be completely wrong about all of this. Sure. Right? Uh and I always feel the need to point that out. You're because I never want to be accused of becoming certain about my uncertainty. Sure.

SPEAKER_06: 37:42

Um which somebody did um ask about that on uh you saw that on social media? On Facebook, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 37:47

Yeah. Did you see my response? Uh huh. Yeah. Go ahead and read something I wrote. Did you like how I did that as kid? No, I think it's not a good idea. Because I actually wrote about that in one of my books. Yeah, no reading.

SPEAKER_06: 37:56

Um I think you're that's all right. Uh I think your um framing of divergent and convergent um thinking is is I like that. I I think that that's um that's a good framing. I've I've heard it described in different ways. It makes me think about um uh a clip that I that I've seen of um of Peterson talking and he talks about this a lot, which is uh it's kind of a reframing of the Cheston Fence thing, which is a good rule of thumb is never do anything different than what people have done in the past first. Mm-hmm. And then when it doesn't work, you've gotta you've gotta go out and do something different. And it's kind of it and and that's another uh way of describing the way that he describes um chaos and order.

SPEAKER_03: 38:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 38:55

The border of order, and that you have to go out into the chaos in order for anything to be new. Anyway, that I just but you're convergent and divergent thinking.

SPEAKER_05: 39:05

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Yeah. So I would I would say that as you just stick with what you're doing until it doesn't seem to work and doesn't seem to fit anymore.

SPEAKER_04: 39:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 39:13

And then and then diverge. Yeah. And think and look at all the different possibilities that are out there. What are other people saying about this?

SPEAKER_06: 39:20

What are, you know, and so I've heard 12-step people say, um uh keep drinking while while drinking is working for you. When it stops working for you, come back here. Look for another way. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 39:34

Yeah, absolutely. And I and and the only reason I came to this conclusion is because it seems to me to fit experience. Mm-hmm. Right. So like so, like this is how I've lived my life. If I go back and I reflect on it, I come across a theological position that the Christian church takes and it doesn't work for me anymore. I'll I'll I'll continue to live in it until it doesn't work for me anymore.

SPEAKER_04: 39:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 39:57

And then I begin to look for different ways to think about it.

SPEAKER_04: 39:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05: 40:00

Right. And so I've started again yesterday writing something. And this is like the fifth time I've tried to start writing this. I'm having a real hard time. I've I'm reframing it again. I was talking about I originally I was talking about um panentheism, embodied panentheism is what is what I originally started looking at it as. And then I reframed it as um the Christian Stoic. Um but one of the things I'm talking the reason I'm writing that is because I think that some people have come to the place where a lot of what um what they have been taught with regards to Christianity doesn't seem to work anymore. And the problem is they're not even sure what's available to like out there. Is there an alternative? Is there a way to continue to and so that's what I'm trying to do with that? But anyway, um yeah, so I think that that's I think it's important to be able to step back. I also think it's important. Then if you really want to um, if you if you really care about trying to figure out this world that you live in, you're gonna have to look at other disciplines. And then all that to go back to say, um, just because earlier persons, earlier people, earlier, you know, ancient whatever didn't understand the universe the way I do today, or their God the way I do today, or or you know, the way their minds work, or you know, whatever. Um it doesn't mean that they were dumb. It just means that there's been a lot more written and a lot more studied and a lot more observed since then.

SPEAKER_02: 41:45

Um and so actually it would be dumb to continue uh so it would be I would be the dumb one if I continue to try to hold on to an old way of thinking in light of all the new information.

SPEAKER_03: 42:04

You don't agree with that at all.

SPEAKER_06: 42:06

I understand the perspective. I have found myself on um another side of uh the the circle there.

SPEAKER_05: 42:17

I want to hear it. Uh because if I don't want to hear it, then I'm not doing what I'm saying I'm doing. Well, I am because maybe I overstated it.

SPEAKER_02: 42:27

Maybe I'm wrong on that.

SPEAKER_03: 42:28

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06: 42:32

I'd have to take some particular things. Uh I I think that um for okay, so let's take this for instance. Uh when you uh as a people give up being uh a tribal people and decide you want a king, like the Israelites, you progress and get something from that. You lose something also. And so I have found myself wondering what are the things that we lose, what are the things that I've lost. Sure. And so um that that it's not it's not necessarily to me that um I have so much information now, um, and so I I am in a position I I don't I'm I'm I I'm skeptical that I am a in a in a better position to understand the world necessarily than someone who lived 3,000 years ago. I think that I am in a better position to understand evolution, and I think that I'm in a better position to understand um uh space. And I think I think there's a lot of places where I am in a better position to understand that.

SPEAKER_05: 43:54

You're better equipped to understand how your mind works.

SPEAKER_06: 43:59

Probably probably in in in a physical way, yeah. There are some ways in the world. There are ways in which I think maybe I'm in a worse position to understand how my psyche works, if you want to say that, my mind as opposed to the brain, right? Um I understand the world, humanity, and how it interacts with the world less because I live in a monotheistic world than really in an atheistic world, you know, in the West, than I would if I lived in a polytheistic world. I wonder what I've lost. And I wonder if there's a way in which I would understand the world, uh, some aspect of it that would that would be better than what I have today. Right. Um So I mean, it's not really an argument with you. It's but but there is some part where it's different because it's not, I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05: 45:04

You're describing to me what I'm hearing you describe to me is a form of divergent thinking. Sure. Right. Um and it it's it's all an attempt to try to become the best Lucas you can be. And sometimes it means I have to think about what are things that I've left behind that maybe I need to reclaim. Where I'm saying it would seem I would seem to be not making wise choices. I use the word I would be stupid, and and I hate to call anything or anybody stupid. I'll call them stupid for on your behalf. So so think about this. And what I'm saying is that if in the light of new information that seems to me and to everyone else to be correct, yeah, I insist though on holding an old position and doing an old thing, even in light of all this new information, yeah, that's not wise, is what I'm saying. Right. So, so like um sometimes I just have to reframe it and I can retain it. Right. But but like for an example would be uh a silly example would be let's just say that um every night uh at about uh nine o'clock at night, I get a really bad stomach ache and I get really bad gas, and I just I'm in a lot of pain, right? Yep. And um, and so I go to a dietitian and try to figure out what's going on, and they ask me, uh, how much chocolate do you eat?

SPEAKER_04: 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 46:26

I'm like, oh my gosh, every night before I go to bed, I like to have a big bowl of chocolate ice cream.

SPEAKER_02: 46:30

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, well, you have your lactose intolerant.

SPEAKER_05: 46:36

Yeah. All right. I have that information. The dumb thing would be to ignore it and continue to eat my chocolate ice cream. Sure. You have no information. You change a little bit. You you change the way you live, you change the way you understand things, right? So that's all I'm saying. Yeah. Is that to look back and say that that an ancient civilization is dumb or I or less uh because I think, like, from what I can tell, um, like go just go back to Egypt. There seems to be some really, really smart people in ancient Egypt. From from what I can tell, right? Rome. Uh there seems to be some really, really intelligent people in Rome who completely understood the universe in a different way than I do. Sure. I can learn from them. I can continue to learn from the people that have come since them.

SPEAKER_02: 47:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 47:22

And I can continue to learn and maybe even try to contribute to future learning. Yeah. Um, because there's going to be a hundred years from now, maybe someone would read something I wrote or hear this podcast, right? Um, or watch a video and be like, I would hope they wouldn't say, boy, Jeff and Lucas were really dumb. Maybe they could say, oh, well, since then, this is what we've learned.

SPEAKER_02: 47:51

That's all I'm saying. Yeah. So I get it. I get it. I I see the principle.

SPEAKER_05: 47:57

Yeah. And again, uh, I'd like with everything. I'm sure there's parts of it that don't stand up to scrutiny, but I as I think as a whole, it's the same thing with the divergent, convergent thinking and the wisdom. That's where wisdom is. Um, I, you know, maybe I didn't gather all the information I needed when I diverged. I'm still gonna have to make the best decision I can right now.

SPEAKER_06: 48:19

Yeah. So yeah, I think that's probably um that it's clearly common ground that we've got is um, I think that that is wisdom as well.

SPEAKER_02: 48:27

Awesome.

SPEAKER_06: 48:28

That humanity, an individual psyche, uh everyone needs to have a good balance of that divergent and convergent thinking that you talk about.

SPEAKER_05: 48:38

Awesome. All right, look at that. You nailed it for us. Thanks. See you next week.

SPEAKER_00: 48:45

Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.