How Hanging Out With Everyone Can Save Us

Ever feel like belonging now requires an enemy list? We sat down as longtime friends—a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist—to push back on that reflex and ask a harder question: what would it take to build a community that includes both the marginalized and the establishment without creating new outcasts? Starting from the subversive image of Jesus sharing tables with tax collectors and widows alike, we unpack why true inclusion offends every camp, and why it’s still worth the cost.

We revisit Roman history to reframe tax collectors as connected insiders, not cinematic outcasts, and use that lens to challenge performative care that avoids hard rooms. From there, we get practical: how do we protect individual conscience while supporting diverse activism? How do we resist purity tests and virtue signaling that turn safe spaces into brittle clubs? We sketch a simple operating principle—problems over enemies—and share language your group can adopt to honor many callings without demanding conformity.

The heart of the conversation is permission. People rarely change their minds when humiliation is the toll. We explore how “permission givers” across identities can unlock genuine shifts, and why communities should cultivate a chorus of credible voices instead of one heroic leader. Along the way we draw a line between protest and vigil, telling a story of a vigil that led to quiet, concrete work aimed at human flourishing rather than louder outrage. The inner work matters too: self-scrutiny, stoic courage, and the daily choice to carry a meaningful burden instead of a bigger megaphone.

If you’re hungry for a way out of tribal reflexes—one that keeps convictions intact while widening the table—this conversation offers tools, stories, and a path forward. Tap play, share it with someone outside your bubble, and tell us: what’s one bridge you’re willing to build this week? And if this resonates, follow the show, leave a review, and invite a friend to join the conversation.

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Transcript

A Friendship Across Beliefs

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 0:35

But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they are with you. Man, so what we want a few games. And y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

Why “Hanging With Everyone” Offends Everyone

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Alright. So today's topic is uh uh I just wrote, I hang out with everyone. And the note that I have, this was this was your topic, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Was it?

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Yeah. It's when you taught you were talking the the day that we were kind of brainstorming a few ideas, and you were talking about Jesus ta hangs out with tax collectors and other sinners, as well as widows and orphans and the religiously pious.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

And the whole idea is that uh and if I remember correctly, one of uh the things you were attempting to claim was that uh that's one of the reasons or the reason that Jesus ended up being crucified is because he hung out with everybody.

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

And so when you're willing to hang out with everybody, what really happens is you piss off everybody.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

So is that the whole episode?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yep, I think that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Great, excellent. We hope you all enjoyed that.

Inclusion Without New Outcasts

SPEAKER_02 2:17

You know, um there was something that I was that I thought that I would bring up on the air that you and I talked about off the air, um, that would be pretty vulnerable uh for me. Um that maybe is is related, so maybe we'll get to that. But um yeah, I I you know I think it's what's um interesting about that aspect of of Jesus' character, or at least the character in the that we read about, is um, you know, not just in our particular your and my particular church here, but in the church that I grew up in also, and I think this is the case in uh it's a it's a zeitgeist, I think, in the at least in the even um in the Protestant church in general, which is that um it's a virtue to be to be accepting of those that you perceive are on the fringes, that that's the virtue. And certainly I think that it is. And I think that what can get lost sometimes in that is how easy it is to um just reframe the boundaries so that there are new fringes and um and feel that you're on the inside of the herd, and so then you're good and you're virtuous. And I I see lots of examples um of uh of the historical Jesus going to what we would call the fringes, right? The prostitutes, the the beggars, um, the fishermen, you know, the the poor, the the fringes. And then um also going to the tax collectors and the religious um leaders and the people who were the oppressors, the the Romans, and you know, um and uh yeah, I think that that's what ends up, you know. I I I I my feeling is that that is uh that's more radical than just picking a new team. And it also is uh really dangerous. And it's very, very, very difficult. I think it's a lifelong, I think probably for myself, it's a lifelong um endeavor.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Uh I th I agree with you. I think that um I think that's actually the work that we're trying to do here. When you you mentioned the um the church that we're a part of here. It's definitely the work that I'm trying to be a part of. And and Krista and I had a uh a really good conversation on Monday about about this, and Jordan and I had a conversation about this this morning because we got an email asking us about um and um about our our level of activism as a church. And um and we don't we don't know it was an unsolicited email that we got. And um, we're not quite sure what the email was about.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

But um Jordan and I just like what prompted it or anything?

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Well, I I have ideas on maybe what prompted it. Um but um it it could very well be um me speaking at uh at a vigil earlier this week from the email. Um but what we what we had to try to explain, and what we're trying to explain is that how do you as a group that is is I just hang with everyone, like you're describing, right? This idea of yeah, Jesus reached out and sat with the outcast, but he also we have, I mean, it's recorded anyway that there were conversations and time spent with Pharisees and tax collectors and the in like, you know, we think of the we think of the tax collectors as sort of being the outside group. Well, they're they're considered the outside group by a very social, small social minority in the greater culture.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

So they're actually the powerful.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

They were absolutely. They would be analogous to think of the most connected business owner that you know in your in your town.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

It's not exactly like that because there was an element of corruption uh that built in, and not I shouldn't say even corruption, because corruption in implies that it's outside of that you're doing something that is not uh based on what the system is, but there was an element of oppression as well. But you could think of them as I mean, they would have been well, well, well connected. They would have been part of the establishment.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Yes. They're not like no like we read the story. They're not outcasts. They're like, oh, poor little Zacchaeus. Right. No. Like even the way he's portrayed in in some of the shows recently that like the popular ones that Christian grew.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Oh, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Like what was the one The Chosen?

SPEAKER_02 7:45

Yeah, I haven't watched any of it, but I know what you're talking about, though.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

Like the tax collector is so afraid. No. You don't you know.

Power, Rome, And Tax Collectors Reframed

SPEAKER_02 7:56

No, these are huge. Okay, so just so anybody who doesn't know, I know we've talked about this before, but this is one of my favorite topics of Roman history because it shows it's one of the things I think that shows how sophisticated that society was, how we would consider it sophisticated, even though it didn't have the technology that we have. Administratively it would have felt very sophisticated. And that is that um their tax system was set up so that a large corporation, think of it as a corporation, it would have been Google or Walmart or whatever, bid to would make bids to the central government for how much they uh could collect for the for the central government for taxes. And then whoever won would pay that immediately. Well, they would pay it in some way directly, they would just pay it to the to the central government of Rome. And then their job was to go out and make good on that. That's their business. And so, and they would make profit. They make profit by extor extracting, I should say extracting. I'll just say extorting. That's what taxes are. Extorting. Um, more than what they had paid, obviously. And how do you do that? You don't go in, this is what you got to remember, you don't go in to a people that are that are under your control and um start by walking into every one of their houses, punching the the dad in the face and clearing out as much silver as you can find. Because you get a rebellion if you do that. You want to shear the sheep, don't kill them, right? So the easiest way to do that is when you have your corporation and your administrators and your hierarchy of managers and mid-managers and lower level managers and blah, blah, blah. The easiest way is to have the point of contact with the people be from those people. You go into those, those communities and you hire a Jewish man named Zacchaeus, and you hire, and it pays very well because you're gonna not be liked by people, but it's gonna make you wealthy, and you do it for a long period of time. You're gonna you're gonna accumulate a lot of influence and a lot of money, and people are gonna want to be around you, and you know, it's power.

SPEAKER_05 10:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

These are the types of people that Jesus was like, and also I'll go eat at your house.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

That's I mean, that's yeah. Weird.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

And I I think that's the hard way. And uh and it seems to be the way that is least chosen. And I so how do we create that? That's that's been the like the the real struggle question um for our leadership is like it's it's being created almost by just sheer will of this is what we're going to be.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

That's how anything is created, because everything rises, it falls on leadership.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

I know, right? But how okay, but what happens when if the so then if the leader's gone, then it crumbles.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

That is a real problem, sure. And so and so And you want something created that could outlive any one leader.

SPEAKER_03 11:26

Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, you look to you look to the model of tribalism, right? Because tribalism outlives its its elders. Um and uh however traditionally tribalism is built on identifying who's out.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Yeah, absolutely.

Beyond Teams: The Hard Way Of Inclusion

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Right, who's who's who's excluded. And what we're trying to do actually is build a community that's defined on all inclusion, including everyone from the tax collectors and the Pharisees to uh the widows and the orphans and the the criminals um and and everybody. And so I don't know. Uh so you know, I I wrote like an 11-page, no, I think it was only ended up only being nine pages, about like that. And you're gonna read it in its entirety. No, but the thing of the matter is I gave it to Krista to read it.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

It's like, yeah, that's beautiful, um, but it doesn't actually answer the question.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Um Which is what? The question of what? Like, how do we how logistically, how do you do it?

SPEAKER_03 12:39

How do we logistically do this?

SPEAKER_02 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

Like, how do we do this? And um because one of the other problems you have is as people start coming into it, because of the way that we have been um uh influenced by our culture, we don't understand any other way than tribalism. Uh it's really counterintuitive, it's counter-cultural. So even when we start being drawn to that because it's a seems like a safe place for us, we accidentally can create it, can create an unsafe space when we begin to assume that we all uh believe and agree on all of the same things. I I recently wrote that on the whiteboard in one of the Sunday school classes because I wanted to um re I was trying to re I'm I'm not able to be in there now. Yeah. Um, because I'm leading a different study. But um to try to remind everyone that the reason you're here is because it's a safe space. You were looking for a safe space, so don't now turn around and turn it into an unsafe space. And and the only way to do that is to be aware that not everyone in here believes or thinks or agrees with you on everything.

SPEAKER_04 14:00

Yeah.

Activism Without Purity Tests

SPEAKER_02 14:01

So um well, to your to your point, it strikes me that historically the only times that I have ever read of tribal peoples, tribalism being reduced, extinguished, however you want to put it, is when a greater force, an outside larger force imposes itself on both and says you neither one of you are either, are are you no longer either one of those tribes. You're all now this empire, you're this American, you're this whatever, right? Um I I think just because it we naturally, I I I'm not even sure that it's cultural. I think I I think that it's it's human nature to default to tribalism.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Yeah, I think tribalism is is an evolutionary development.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

It's just it's for it's for survival. And right, right. I mean, if you're gonna survive your uh you have to expand beyond your immediate family and in inclusion.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Um and you do and you have to know who the outsiders are.

From Protest To Vigil

SPEAKER_03 15:18

Identify who the shared threats are, who the shared enemies are, and then we'll come together. I mean, if you okay, so look at the Bible if if we want, right? Um, the development of the tr of uh Israel as a nation is the coming together of 12 individual tribes because of perceived exterior threats from Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, um the you know, uh uh Philistines. And so we'll all bond together because they're the enemy. And then so then I look at like the United States, for example, and I think that the United States is a uh is a large example of trying to say what we're trying to do on in sort of in a microcosm, right? Like it's this the the concept is that all men are created equal and everyone, right? And you have these rights and these and inalienable rights. And and so what we're coming together for is the common good of all humankind, right? Um, and so let's just just for for ease, let's just say that that by uh 1780, it it you kind of have become this thing and you're trying to figure out what that looks like, all right. But then already by 1830s, you have splintering divisions beginning to form. And even before that, because you've got the development of republicanism and federalism, and it's well, okay, if we're gonna do this, but we have to do it differently, and it already begins to splinter. And so how the it's a this is like a huge question. How do you keep it from splintering? Because where I see it happening in an organ in a in a community, uh um a tri, uh whatever, that we're trying to create here is that um we begin to start thinking like, well, okay, we're together. Now what are we gonna do about these this thing? Yeah. And then what we want to do is we want to make our entire community about solving this thing. And then the problem becomes, and this is what I've been talking about and writing about and shooting videos about and all kinds of stuff about is that whenever uh what what happens is we then begin to um it's what we can start out as trying to solve a an issue, uh we end up though like determining who's the problem, and then they become the enemy instead of keeping our eye on the problem. Sure. Right? Um and so you have to, how do you create space where if there is a group of people within the larger community that feel strongly about X, that they have every right to go and speak and do what they feel they need to do about X without without demanding that everyone in the community go do X. Or maybe we all are concerned about X, but we have to understand that the way that you're going to go about that may be different. And it and then be and then so we can't we have to we have to constantly be fighting against purity testing. We have to uh constantly um be fighting against um uh what's the word? Uh I was just uh I was just thinking about this this morning, and it just went right out of my head. Let me see if I can find where I wrote it uh because I was writing this morning. Um where we have like these um performative, like yeah, like struggle sessions. Well and moral perform moral performatives, right? Like or like the like virtue signaling. Virtuous signaling. That's the that was the phrase I was trying to think of, virtuous signaling. And and we do like this moral outrage, and it's all performative. Yeah. Uh we have to get beyond the performative part of looking to try to make a better world. We have to focus on the flourishing part, where anytime I am doing something that blocks flourishing, even if I am attempting to uh even if even if I've identified an area where I feel flourishing has been blocked, right? Let's just let's just say um let me pick something like uh something that let's say racism. Okay. Uh uh anytime that you um you treat somebody different because of their race, um and you begin to put like restrictions on their ability to do things, you're blocking the ability of that entire people group to flourish. Right? Okay. So we see that and we feel strongly about that, and so we decide we're going to do something about that. Now, if you turn the the the racist or the or the or the uh the person who is perpetuating the system into the enemy that needs to be destroyed, you have inadvertently participated in blocking the flourishing.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Because now you're actively trying to block the flourishing of another people group. And and so what is happening needs to stop without destroying the other person. That's kind of what I'm trying to suggest. And so, you know, I wrote the nine pages and Krista was like, yeah, I like that. But um, and uh, but however, and so the challenge was like, like, how do we what would be a statement? What would be a thing? And so I wrote this. We believe love calls each person to different expressions of service and advocacy. Members participate in various causes and organizations according to what love requires of them. Some march in pride parades, others volunteer at homeless shelters, others engage in environmental work, still others in dialogue across political divides. We share these opportunities with the community and support each other's calling, but individual involvement represents personal discernment rather than official community commitments. This diversity isn't a weakness. It's evidence that, and I steal this from Jordan Peterson, the nonetheless. Did you watch that lecture?

SPEAKER_02 21:48

I'm not sure yet.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

So good.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

You like that? Yeah. Is that part of the Sermon on the Mouth? Yeah. Okay. I haven't gotten there then. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Um Yeah, I've I've been uh I'm like I'm like mainlining it right now. Okay. Right. Yeah. And uh and so anyway, um, he talks about faith is when you when you come face to face with evidence of the contrary, you say nonetheless.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Yeah. And so I I sort of switched that around a little bit and I've coined the phrase nonetheless faith. Right. So it's evidence that nonetheless faith produces different fruit in different lives, all working toward human flourishing. To me, I think that's a statement, right? Um, but I'm not sure I'm not sure it still accomplishes what we need it to accomplish. So I think you could solve that.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Okay, I'll solve it right now. Um I I think your analogy to the United States is a really interesting one. Um I don't I mean I would step back to that because you know you got 1780, and I I really again mentioned this last week. Uh we don't really have um a country. We have we have states that are allied together very tightly. And yes, we do have a country. That is true. It's in some sense. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Referencing back to these United States and then after the Civil War to the United States.

Personal Stories That Shift Perspective

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Yeah, but a Virginian would see themselves as a Virginian first, well into the early 19th century. I mean, in 1820, a Virginian's gonna feel like a Virginian first and probably uh a citizen of the United States of America second. Um, same for someone from Massachusetts, or you know, they're they're gonna see that that's who they are. And so Yuvall Harari talked about this in his book, Sapiens, and I think it's I think it's a really good point is that um one of the aspects of being human is this ability to well, it's the narrative um process that our our brains do, but we kinda we like have this um we can have this image of ourselves and the world that is all wrapped up in symbolism. And and we're now in this point of our cultural development post-Enlightenment, where we've we feel that we've destroyed the the all these symbols. And we when we say that's just a symbol, we think of it as dismissive, right? What's real is behind it somewhere. The symbol's not real, the symbol you could just have whatever. But I don't think that's really the case. I think that underneath, symbols are to our experience, maybe more real than the thing behind it in some ways. And so I think that what happened in the United States was, and there's a lot of things that happened in the United States, but for this particular point, there was this clash of how you saw yourself. Did you see yourself as a Virginian who happened to live in the United States, or did you see yourself as a citizen of the United States that happened to live in a particular state? And that clash came to a head and it was settled at the end of it. You are a citizen of the United States that happens to live in a state.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

And we still fight. I think we still fight against that. Of course we do. Of course we do. Okay. So in in that in that understanding, then I think it points to uh tribalism again.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah. And how tribalism then That's what I mean about a larger overarching expands.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Tribe the Now we're in a bigger tribe. And I would say that uh the the uh evolutionary trajectory of tribalism is ever inclusive, is ever grow, like who's included continues to grow. Right. So starts with family, moves to cousins, right? Moves to other tribes that come together, and oh look, we're all from the same family, really. And now it's that, and then and then it becomes um city-states, right? And then it becomes nations.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

And I think I would agree with you for a particular time frame. I'm not sure that that's always the arc, because I think we've been going, you could say backwards. I don't think it's actually backwards, I just think it's a difference. But I think 1981, that picture of our tribe was larger than it is today.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

Yeah, deglobalization.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Because we were it was the West versus the Soviet Union, and I do think that it's it's been fracturing more, and we're like, wait a sec.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

We're we're not European.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

Why are we, you know, making my point? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

No, absolutely. And which is why I think that what we're talking about right now is so important.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

All right. So the trajectory was, and I'll go with uh 80.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Whatever let's just say uh I I was just picking something before the fall of the Berlin Wall.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

When did the Berlin Wall come down?

SPEAKER_02 26:52

It was ninety. Was it?

SPEAKER_03 26:54

I was saying it was like 89.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

It might have been 89. It was right at the turn.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

I graduated in 89. So for some reason that's what graduated from high school in 89.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

So I'm thinking of the um Soviet Union um colossal, which is which is December, which is uh Christmas of was it 90? So it might have been 89 that the wall came down.

Permission To Change Your Mind

SPEAKER_03 27:17

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. So the trajectory was an ever-growing understanding of the size of our tribe, right? So uh United States, uh, we are a we are the we are um these United States, right? Um and then what happens is the uh the predominantly uh slave-holding southern states unite into a tribe within the conglomerate and say, well, actually, and then you other ones are our enemy. And then that war plays out, and then it becomes the United States, right? And we still sort of push against that a little bit because we still identify ourselves. I mean, I wrote a whole thing uh in um in the book uh uh The Certainty Trap about the um how the West Coast and the East Coast and how and and uh again, this is uh this is generalizations, but how they view the inner inner part of the state, right? And so the flyover country. Right. And so we used to have north and south, it's moved to east and west and middle, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:26

And then um the heartland and all the urban and rural, there's all these different ways you see yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

Okay. And then but then the United States then enters, uh reluctantly enters World War One.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

And um, because there's debates about because of the worst president we ever had, Woodrow Wilson, please continue.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Okay, are they part of our tribe? Are they not part of our tribe? Right. And then uh World War II.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Again, we have isolationists, and are we because of the second worst president we ever had, FDR, please continue.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

You're gonna get yourself in trouble with that one. And um, and so so I think most people are like Woodrow Wilson, sure.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

FDR, wait a second. Wait a second, he saved our country. Top five. Right. So anyway, um, okay talk about a populist who wanted to make himself Caesar.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Four terms?

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

So um, okay. So then after World War II, the United at the prompting of the United States, the way I understand it, is you have NATO, you have all of a sudden, and then the United States offers to become the police of the world for, let's just also be honest, for uh trade and economy. Sure. Because it allows us to trade safely with a larger global economy. And so global economy starts and again it begins to spread. Now we still have an enemy, it's called communism. Then we'll go with 89, Berlin Wall comes down.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

You were right, by the way. Was it 89? Yeah. Awesome. November 89.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

I love being told I was right. It doesn't happen often. Usually I'm told, don't question me. And um, and so what we begin to see at that point is a crack in globalization and the pro and the beginning of deglobalization. Now, as we deglobalize, it seems to me that as you deglobalize, naturally what's going to happen as a result of the tribalism is the number of enemies you have begins to increase.

SPEAKER_04 30:24

Yep, absolutely.

Building A Diverse, Safe Community

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Right? Um, I think that that will be the ultimate demise of us is the reversing the trajectory of who's included, which is why for me there is no more important message that I can be engaged in than trying to expand our understanding of who is included. And back to your point earlier, if that's what Jesus was trying to do and it got him killed, then those of us who are willing to do this work, we may not get killed. We might, I mean, who knows, right? Um, I doubt someone's gonna take a shot at me. But I know that people will take will will be happy to verbally assault me. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Um and uh and socially, you too, yeah. You you uh you pay a price that you always right, that's the Peterson thing too. You you you always pay a price. You you don't get to choose to not pay a price. You gotta you you do get to choose what price to pay, but um, you don't get to choose to not pay.

SPEAKER_03 31:41

Yeah. And at some point you have to stop asking why me, and you have to start asking, well, why not me?

SPEAKER_02 31:46

And as soon as you stop asking why me, and you just pick up your burden and start the pick up the heaviest thing you can and start walking, all of a sudden the world gets brighter. You have you, you've got something you're working toward. It's you have this feeling of it's not happiness. That's the thing. It's not happiness, it's better than happiness. It's there, I don't really know a good word for it, but um, I've experienced it and it it feels clarifying and invigorating and good and right and honorable, and you know, I I you know I I can't recommend picking up your heaviest burden that that you can willingly pick up and walking with it. I can't recommend that enough.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

I will say this too. Um I know I can't do it alone.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Um even picking up my burden. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

I need I need um uh I need people who are willing to um even if it's just say, hey, uh you're doing you're doing good work, right? Or just something like that, um, to continue to challenge me, um to continue to push me.

SPEAKER_04 33:20

I I will say this, um I've already said it. I just think that th this work is perhaps the most important work that I can imagine being involved in.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Um and uh and as a as a nine, of course it's gonna look like peacemaking and as a with a one wing, I want to change the entire world.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

So I I I think um it's very it's it's very difficult because it it requires a continual looking inside for myself. I'm just talking for myself. Every time I want to lecture someone, I know that I should be lecturing myself. Every time I want to say, you're being hypocritical, I know I should be looking at myself. Right?

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

And um, so it's it's difficult. And you have I have to be, I have to be honest with myself about ugly things inside, things that are that I find kind of pathetic about myself, aspects of my character that I find pathetic. Um, and I got, you know, there's there's no fixing those. There's no growing if I don't if I don't look at those honestly.

SPEAKER_03 34:46

You sound like a a real stoic.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

I I mean there's I obviously like it a lot.

Closing And Live Event Details

SPEAKER_03 34:53

I'm not great at it, but I I officially declared myself a Christian stoic uh just a couple weeks ago. I think it's uh I don't I don't think that you can not be a stoic. Yeah. That's just my opinion. I think that I think that stoicism's embedded in Christianity. Yeah. That that being said, um you I also though think about this uh something else I was writing this morning. And the reason I was writing it was because of what I participated in on Tuesday. Um and the reason also is because I hand wrote on my notes for my talk on Tuesday this. Um basically I see that what we're talking about is the difference between a protest and a vigil. Um protests are about pointing out what's wrong with you. Vigils are taking time to reflect on what's important to me.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

And and I think that we I think that too often our culture is geared towards protest and not enough vigil. And I'm not even saying like religiously, like vigilance. I'm using vigil as a term of uh vi how about oh man, I was about to do some language language thing, so I'm gonna skip it.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Okay. I think that that is an interesting um juxtaposition that you put.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

Um it's I'm working on a script for a video for that, by the way. Shameless plug. It's gonna be on my sub stack.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Yeah. Uh which everyone should subscribe to. Um and pay the extra for the uh for the extra uh content that's gonna be coming out. Um historically, vigils have mostly been political and and pointed. Funerals, historically, there's a there's a reason that um you hear, you heard during the during the Afghanistan and Iraq war about this funeral and that funeral getting getting hit with now. Part of that is like mistakes made. Um, but part of it is that you know, they turn into the funerals and vigils turn into protests. There, that's the reason we're gathering, really. We're not gonna say it necessarily initially, but um that's so it's an interesting contrast. Yeah. Yeah. And of course it's that, it's the it's the most poignant kind of experience. Somebody has died, yeah, right? Somebody that you cared about or somebody that shouldn't have, you know, how how you feel that they shouldn't have, or you know, whatever. But it's a um, you know, it's not I'm not trying to say, obviously, I'm not trying to say your grandma's funeral is is a um is a vigil, but I mean, just look throughout history. I mean, there's it happens all the time. Every um place that is m kind of mired in conflict, the rulers or the leaders of that area get real nervous when there's funerals because they pop off. You know? Um turn them into protest.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Uh and I and I think about I I I started thinking about this recently. Yeah. Um, and it dawned on me. Like this thing, this thing dawned on me. Um, I've been I've been practicing what I'm talking about. I've been practicing it actually for years, but I've never like formally like put my thoughts together like I've been doing for the last year about this. Um, well, now for a few years. I mean, we've been on the air for over two years now.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Um but uh I've never gone to a protest. I've been invited, I've been asked to go. Um but I've gone to vigils. And my experience with with vigils are I come away transformed rather than going and screaming that other people need to be transformed.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

And again, I'm not saying that that they all don't have their place. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah. Right. Um I just like I think about the the prayer vigil that I went to several years ago when my children were little. And um it was for all of the, and again, this is I think you this is correct. Vigils often start like with a political thing. Right. Like just think like uh the one Tuesday night was uh a prayer vigil for all of the families and individuals impacted by the escalating violence from ICE agents. Right. So how do you do that though, in such a way that you make it about your your values, your morals, your your uh convictions, not about how bad everyone else is? To me, that's the thing. So, like the other the other one that I'm thinking about is it was um um everyone that had lost their lives at mass shootings in the United States, like over a period of time. And my kids were little, and it was right across the street from um State Capitol. Have I told you the story before?

SPEAKER_02 40:16

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

And uh I don't think so. And uh we went, Denise and I brought Madison and Robbie and um Kay and Larry went with us and and other friends. Um met us there, Corey and Pamela, and and um anyway, they had these different like um places set up, and there was a cardboard sign that was handwritten and it had the name of the location where the shooting took place, and then there was candles representing each life that was lost in that one shooting, right? And so I I noticed that my children had gone and they were kneeling and reading um the one for Sandy Hook. And so um as we were leaving, Robbie came up and he took my hand and he looked up at me and he said, Dad, those kids would be in my grade. And I lost it. Um and at that moment, I wasn't thinking about like policy reform and and and uh how bad the NRA is like all the that's not what I was thinking about. I was thinking about my son and those kids. Sure. And how um what can I do so that maybe someone else won't feel the need to pick up a gun and shoot someone. That's when I started a nonprofit called um Wondrous Hugh. And all it was was an opportunity we just tried to create opportunities for students to get together and uh be seen, heard, and valued. And I think that came out of a moment of reflection. What do I actually stand for? Um, but not what do I stand against?

SPEAKER_04 42:01

So that's it. Yeah. And so you could say that the reason I feel that way is because of uh what I see in my scriptures, or you could just say that maybe that was the impetus, and uh and I just really feel like it's super important.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yeah, I mean uh you know, um when um Charlie Furk was assassinated, there were vigils many uh many vigils being held all over the United States um in remembrance and you know and and I think that was shot. Yeah, and I think that the people who go to these, I think by and large uh they feel that they are going to these for the reasons that that you're saying, you know. We want to we just want to remember these people, you know?

SPEAKER_03 43:06

And what I'm saying is if you're a progressive and there's a there was a vigil for Charlie Kirk, and your first thought was to protest it, shame on you. Well, and and vice versa. If there was a vigil for Renee Good and you and you're a conservative and your first thought was to protest it, shame on you.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Well, and and yes, and think about how you view, I think it's it's in some ways it's good that they happened so um quickly. Not not the not the acts, not the not the acts, the vigils.

SPEAKER_03 43:44

Opportunity for a mirror to be put up.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Right. And so what I'm I I I worded that really badly. I don't mean it was good that either one of them happened, obviously. Either one of them were shot. What I'm saying is you can you can envision, you can think about, just think to yourself, okay. What were the Charlie Kirk vigils about? Just ask that question of yourself. What were the Charlie Kirk vigils about, really? What were the Renee Good vigils about? Really? And however you answer that, you can just know that somebody who's on the other side has a mirror image of how you answered that. And so what does that mean? I mean, I think that that goes to what I was saying at the very beginning, that like if I'm going to be very vulnerable when events happen, I notice in myself that I once, I, depending on what whatever however it's situated, I want one person to be the right person and one person to be the wrong person, based on kind of who do I like more? That is ugly and pathetic, but it's real. That's what happens in me.

SPEAKER_03 45:02

I think if anybody says that that doesn't happen in them, even if it's just quickly, that they're probably um not as self-aware as they should be.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

I think I I think it's a good idea to try to be more self-aware about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Because I know that there are times when I'll see things on the news, and I think immediately we are like we try to say, well, who was right and who was wrong?

SPEAKER_02 45:28

And and it's just based on, I think, like, come on, those pe you know, those people, right? And the reason that I know this, and I won't go into all the detail, but I I I talked to you about it um off the mic um a couple weeks ago, and that was that I noticed a um I noticed that when somebody I respected and liked started expressing the other opinion than I had, all of a sudden I got some permission to have that opinion. Right?

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

And I noted I saw because of the kind of the time frame of it. It was about a week and a half, and then and then I heard him talking about it, and then I was like, yeah, that's kind of right. And and then I I like stopped because I was like, holy crap, that's really that's pathetic, Lucas. That's like you, that's not so. Did you have a principle to begin with? Why did you start in that position if you can be so easily swayed because this person that you like has this other opinion, you know? And I just have to be honest that there's like there's an avatar of a character that I just don't I just don't like them. I don't, they just kinda they annoy me. They kind And I think if I'm gonna be fair to myself, I think to your point, everyone has that.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

You know, it's people that remind you of your uncle, it's people that remind you of your dad that you're mad at.

SPEAKER_05 47:02

It was mean to you in school. Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

Whatever. It's it's people that remind you of your addict, whatever family member, whatever. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

Yeah, and and I would say you're being hard on yourself to say that, you know, oh, how pathetic. I think um I think it's more insightful. Like I think it's that's the kind of insight we need if we're gonna really begin to try to be able to make change in this world, is that we then then like I have to be the type of person that others that that others would look to as a permission giver. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yep. And and so um I think it also then uh uh shows the importance of diversity in this movement. Yeah. Because I am not gonna be the type of person that everyone looks to uh as uh someone that uh they feel like they're just waiting for me to give them the permission. Yeah. Right. Um but you might be. You might be that person for somebody. And so um, or uh someone else. I I don't want to start naming.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

But there the it's it's the important of the it is why it is so important for the the group that is being formed around what we're for, not what we're against, about creating safe spaces for all people, um that it be a diverse group. Because someone has to be able to see themselves in you and then feel the permission to change their position.

SPEAKER_04 48:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

But if everyone that they feel is them holds the same position, they'll never change.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Then it's obvious who the bad people are, it's obvious who the good people are.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

In your gut, you start feeling a gnawing of we might be wrong, you're not gonna get permission for it unless someone else says, you know what, we might be wrong. Right. And so we have to be the people that are that are um willing to do that.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

A public example of this is an example that um Daryl Cooper gave on his um one of the more recent episodes with Scott Horton on their show. Um I don't remember if it was uh Cooper or Horton who was talking about it, but they're talking about um in the first lead up to the the lead up to the first Trump administration, during the the um the primaries, Trump's up there with the other Republicans. And when Trump said, yeah, the the Iraq war was a mistake, the whole thing, Afghanistan, Iraq, we shouldn't have been doing any of it. It was a mistake. Boondoggle, we lost a bunch of money, we shouldn't have been there in the first place. A lot of the establishment and the um definitely the establishment of Republicans, but um, but a ton of the media just thought, well, he's done. He's done then. You can't say that to Republicans, you know. We just we've had whatever. We've had 20 years of of Republicans knowing that, you know, all the anti-war people are all the are commies and they're, you know, whatever. And um snowflakes. They're snowflakes, they're whatever. They're it's um things I've been called. Yeah. And uh uh what they didn't realize, and this is this was Cooper's point, is that the base had already gotten to the point, maybe four or five years prior, where number one, they were starting to be like, man, we are spending a lot of money. And there are people continuing to die, and I don't know what we're doing. And also, this topic is an albatross around my neck. I hate when it comes up in dinner parties or what I don't want to talk about it at all because I it feels really dumb to try to defend these positions now. But I can't change my mind because what does that mean? I'm gonna agree with Nancy Pelosi.

SPEAKER_05 51:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna agree with Bernie Sanders. I'm not gonna do that.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

But I I hate when that happens to me on accident.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

But Trump comes out and says this was a whole the whole thing was a boondoggle, all of a sudden, and this is again, people got to remember this is early in the Republican primary. All of a sudden, all of those Republicans in the base that have been quiet about it, they all got permission to go. You know what? He's right. I've always thought that, or at least I've thought that for the last 10 years. Forget the Bush. I'm definitely not voting for Jeb, you know? I mean, it and it it gave them permission is the point.

SPEAKER_05 51:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

And I think that that is, they were making the point that we've got to give people permission to be able to change their mind without being humiliated. Yeah. You know, and um I I mean, I like your point that um there's gonna be different people in the group that are permission givers where they have their bona fides that you know, they're progressive enough, let's say. Yeah. And then they can say, you know, it's all right to hang out with an evangelical or whatever, you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_03 52:35

Um I think so.

SPEAKER_04 52:37

All right, common ground.

SPEAKER_02 52:45

Um I mean, I I think uh I I think that you and I have a very, very, very similar vision of what we want the group to be. Um and that we want it to be a place where everyone is welcome. And I also think that the common ground is probably that we got to keep looking into ourselves when we see the uh metaphorical plank or a metaphorical speck in our neighbor's eye.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Yeah. Yeah, I I I agree with that. All right. So, real quick, um just to wrap up, uh put it on your calendars on March 27th. It's a Friday night at uh the doors will open at 5:30. Recording will probably start around 6. We're gonna have um dinner and um it's don't get excited, it's probably just gonna be pizza. But we're it's gonna be a live recording of Living on Common Ground, and uh, and people are gonna be get an opportunity to be given a microphone and to ask their questions. If you want to give us a heads up before um or just let us know that you're coming, you can email me. It's Jeffrey.strez off s t-r-e-s-z-o-f at gmail.com, and uh, we'd love to hear from you. All right. Thanks. See ya.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

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