Striving, Resentment, And The Path That Keeps Us Human

Feeling forced to pick a side? We chose friendship instead. A progressive Christian and a conservative atheist sit down to make sense of judgment, grace, and the strange way big ideals can both guide and haunt us. Using Jordan Peterson’s Sermon on the Mount lectures as a shared springboard, we reframe familiar teachings through psychology: the measure you use will be used on you, not as a scold, but as a real-world feedback loop that shapes communities and personal growth.

Together we unpack the parable of the talents via the Pareto principle, asking why success concentrates and what that means for creativity, influence, and opportunity. Then we put Kant’s categorical imperative on the table with simple, concrete examples—what breaks if everyone lies, and what strengthens if everyone tells the truth—and set it against Hobbes’ stark view of human nature. Instead of scoreboard philosophy, we look for tools that help us live better: where universal ethics clarify choices, where scarcity drives conflict, and where cooperation unlocks flourishing.

From there the conversation gets personal. What happens when your ideal is too far away? Resentment. Too close? You might break paradise out of boredom. We explore micro-habits and humility—buying the shoes, putting away one pair of socks—as a way to keep the path alive. We connect this to midlife restlessness, the fading thrill of cultural rituals like the Super Bowl, and the possibility that comfort nudges us to manufacture outrage when what we really need is a quest. Design challenges that stretch but don’t shatter: a trail distance, a weight target, a creative milestone. Let the striving—not the finish line—carry you.

If you’re looking for a thoughtful, good-faith exchange that resists the outrage machine and offers practical ways to move toward your ideals, you’re in the right place. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend across the aisle, and leave a review telling us the one small step you’ll take this week.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends?

SPEAKER_02 0:34

I don't know. But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_07 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they are living in a dog. Man, so well, we want a few games. Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

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SPEAKER_05 1:16

So uh yeah, I am enjoying the Jordan Peterson lectures. Thanks again, uh, for the failing some of the tests. Well we need some of the things. Okay, but I need Yeah, no, but here's the thing. Yes, I am one of those that if I'm gonna watch the lecture and there's a test afterwards, uh-huh, I'm taking the test. Like you don't have to. There's I mean, it's not like you're getting a grade or anything like that. I didn't even know they existed. I I'm so there's not only so each lesson comes with a quiz. Sure. Which makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

It's it's supposed to be kind of laid out like a university.

SPEAKER_05 1:48

Well, yeah, and plus I I I think that um for some, having a qu like taking a quiz actually um helps you remember the concept. Yeah, embeds it in your right. And that's like for me, that's why I have this little black notebook here because writing things down embeds it for me. Yeah, sure. And um, and then of course, if you really want me to learn something, draw a model. Sure. You make a model, and I'm gonna, and that's gonna just that's a way to get me. But um, yes, I did, I failed one of the quizzes. I got a 60. Okay. It's not a fail, it's D. Is that a D? In my mind that's an S. It's a D minus. Well, I guess, okay. But uh a couple points I want to make. First of all, there's only five questions. Uh-huh. So you miss two and you're done. Uh-huh. Um, but overall, this is what a this is what a geek I am. I don't think less of you, Jeff. Well, you shouldn't. Um, and here's why. Now you'll think less of me when I tell you this story. Okay. So I added up all of my scores and divided by how many quizzes I've taken to see that my overall course right now is an 85.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

You're keeping tracking your GPA with the Peterson University. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Uh isn't that sad? No, it's not sad. I think that's great. I think that's very uh yeah. I'm not doing as well as I did in seminary. That is on brand.

SPEAKER_05 3:09

When I was in seminary, I had like I I graduated with a four point, no, not a four point, you couldn't get anything above a four point oh in seminary. I I graduated with like a three point, I think it was a three point eight five is what I graduated seminary from with. It's impressive. And um right now in in Jordan Peterson University, I've got an 85. So I've got some work to do to pull that up. I'm hoping that the final exam will it'll be weighted.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Yeah. You're not being graded on a curve, you got no curve to uh There is no curve.

SPEAKER_05 3:42

I know. We don't have any morons taking the test to I know that we're at least not that we know. Right. So uh anyway, I wanted to talk about one of the concepts that um that uh he discussed in his lecture that I was watching today. And uh as you pointed out, this is the Sermon on the Mount lecture? Yeah, it's the Sermon on the Mount lecture, and it's really it's really fascinating. One of the things I like about it is one of the things I'm really enjoying about the Jordan Peterson lectures, with well, this one in particular, is that I um I've heard I've heard a uh uh a plethora of information on things like the Sermon on the Mount. Sure, right? Because I mean I've been you know, you do, you go through seminary and you, you know, and and you read the books and you and you read all the different commentaries and all that kind of stuff. And so I've I've I've got a lot of theological insight, I've got a lot of um historical insight into it, you know, you get you get all of that stuff. But what I'm really appreciating is the psychological way he's reflecting on it.

SPEAKER_04 4:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:48

Right through his uh expertise, yeah. Which is fantastic. And so um, I'm taking a ton of notes, and it's funny because um sometimes, you know, my initial reaction is I don't know about that, when he says something. But then if I allow myself to just say, okay, what insight is he sharing here from his perspective? It's it's really um, it's really enlightening. Yeah. So anyway, he was talking today about um, well, first of all, uh he he was talking about the judge not lest ye be judged. Right. Don't don't judge unless you're willing to be judged. And he says, and one of the things he pointed out is he's not saying don't judge, period. What he's saying is that understand that the the way that you judge is the way that you will be judged. And I think that's a that's a really interesting distinction. And it's also true. Mm-hmm. Right. I think that the grace that you show someone it will often be the grace that they'll give back to you.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

You know, that's an interesting point because it's it makes me think about something I thought of uh Jesus' teachings for quite a while, which is um that if I let my eyes metaphorically kind of go on uh unfocused, and I think of a lot of the parables, this particular Sermon on the Mount, these types of things, instead of thinking of them necessarily as admonitions, and instead thinking them, thinking of them as um a a um that it's propositional. It's a, it's a uh, well, that it's an argument about how the world works. For instance, the uh parable of the the servants with the talents. When I'm young, I'm taught, and I think for a lot of people continue to be taught that with the parable of talents that there is a character, a personality called God that will respond in these ways. You'll be punished for hiding your talent. You'll be rewarded for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

And when I just kind of when I read that again as an adult, like older, well, not older adult, but like, you know, 30-something um adult, and read it, I thought, oh my gosh, that's just life. That is how life works. Whatever you fear, you create. Whatever you try to resist, you end up creating. So if you have very little, and also, um, and Peterson talks about this with the parable of the talents, that it's just a great um representation of the Preto principle, that from whom has the least, it will be taken away from you. And to whom has the most, more will be added. That's just how the Preto principle works. It's not some sort of um punitive and reward system. It's just you need to recognize that if you're at the bottom of the Preto principle, it's real easy for you to continue to fail, really hard for you to succeed. You can, but you gotta be really, really careful as you're climbing. Once you're at the top of it, it's hard for you to fail, easy for you to succeed. And this is in every endeavor. He talks about this, every creative endeavor. Um, it does not have to do with it does have to do with money, but it doesn't just have to do with money, it has to do with everything influence, creativity, you know, everything. Um, and so anyway, my point just being that that is another example of how when I'm reading these like the Sermon on the Mount, if I read it as like this is just how the world works. If you are a judgmental person, you're going to get it back. And it's this like feedback loop, and it's very difficult to tell which came first, the judging or the being judged. Right. You know?

SPEAKER_05 9:06

Yeah, because I mean, the more grace that you give, the more grace you receive, the more grace you're apt to give. The more judgment you receive, the more judgment you give, which means the more judgment you're going to receive. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

There, like I'm And I can hear the voice already saying, in every case, Lucas, in every case, Jeff, I can think of these exceptions where that doesn't happen. And that is not the point. Right. The point is this is in general how the world works. And you can kind of grasp onto these principles and and use them to help better.

SPEAKER_05 9:40

That's the thing, too. The exception doesn't determine the principle. Right. Yeah. So uh, but along those same lines, he's been talking about a lot of different things. And um uh one of the things he talks about is that how heaven as a concept is the ideal. And that when you um and then the idea what we should do is try to align ourselves with the ideal and live towards the ideal. Um and uh and he talks about how sometimes, most of the time, we like we can't just all of a sudden be the ideal. And so you have to begin to you have to begin to identify what are some things that I can do differently, what are some things that I can give up, what are some things that I can start to do, whatever it is that will help me move towards the ideal. And um, and then he said, and then what the interesting thing, and I thought this was this isn't in my notes, this is just from memory this morning, but um, one of the things he talked about was then what you do is you find yourself that even though you haven't reached the ideal, you're in the right place. You're already in the right place because you're moving towards the ideal. Um and I thought that I thought that was really interesting. Um then, and I want to get like there's a certain thing I want to get to because I want to hear your thoughts on it. Um but then he talks about this idea that um he brings in Kant, which you know we were talking about before we started recording, and that there's this uh this categorical imperative, the universal moral law, and that um what what Kant are advocated for was like acting in ways that if universally followed would result in the best outcome for all. Yep. And I think that that's um I think that's true. And I also think that that's when I talk about flourishing, that's what I'm talking about. I also would argue that that's what we see in nature. Um, and it also then requires self-sacrifice, which goes against like um Hobbes, who talks about in nature it's actually eat or be eaten. Right. And I think that that's I think that that is uh actually going against the uh the talos of what seems to me is even evident in um evolution, especially when you think about evolution in terms of community. Yeah. Uh try like the move from well, I think we I know we've talked about this probably ad nauseum now, um, but when you look at uh who who constitutes my community, how it continues to grow, um, because we understand the and then as it continues to grow, we begin to understand the necessity of contributing to the overall because of the okay. So anyway, all that.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

Well, and just to for anybody listening who's not familiar with Immanuel Kant and this and and this concept, a really simple example of the point that he makes is because his whole thing is you can determine what's right and wrong by taking it to its extreme. Assume everyone in the society does the thing, does it break down society or does it make society better? And so a really easy one you can do as an example for anybody listening is you can just uh take the example of telling the truth or telling lies. So if every single, it's a thought experiment, if every single person in a society always told the truth, forget about whether or not they would or not. The point of the example is point of the thought experiment is that they would. If they always told the truth, would that generally make society stronger or would it break it down? And then go the opposite. If every single person always lied, would that make the society stronger or break it down? And then it and so you take it to that extreme and you can you can see it becomes very clear what he the point he's making. If everybody always lied, it would be impossible to have social cohesion. If everybody told the truth, yes, there would be other ramifications, yes, that I can I can already hear people saying. Yeah, that might actually also fight against social um But I think but I think on balance it's pretty easy to say it would cause greater social cohesion than the opposite, which is everyone always lying.

SPEAKER_05 14:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

And so um so that's how Emmanuel Kant determines universal moral codes, is is that kind of that thought experiment. Um and so I I just wanted to kind of give a a primer for anybody who's listening that is not necessarily familiar with Kant or Do you want to talk about Hobbes real quick too, since I brought him up? Yeah, Hobbes is one of my favorites. I I um in a class that I teach for homeschoolers, I um uh I teach I teach a bit of his uh work, Leviathan, which is kind of his uh one of his seminal works. Um and his conceptualization of human nature is that um the the baseline, the default of human nature is um is is essentially constant war. It is in nature, it is all against all. Because his primary position is that everyone, all of existence wants to continue to exist. And so every individual wants to continue to live. Therefore, every individual primarily, and they might have secondary motivations as well, but their primary motivation is to live. And so when you have multiple organisms wanting to continue to live and needing resources to do so and having finite resources, it um inherently means everyone is out for themselves first and has to take from others, which causes inherent conflict. And then his and Leviathan goes through the steps of um how then you come to have what he calls the commonwealth, which is people coming together to in order to protect themselves by having greater numbers. Um and then there's a whole bunch of detail in there, in the in the uh work that is really fascinating. And I think the thing is, this is why this is why philosophy majors will always be talking, because I think he has really great points too. You know, I think he has some solid logic behind his points as well. And I'd love to, you know, I'd love to have somebody who's a Kantian um, you know, debate against a Hobbesian and and see where they where they uh could agree, where they would definitely clash and all of that.

SPEAKER_05 16:37

Yeah, I definitely lean towards Kant. Sure. And um so then of course logically brings us to Dostoevsky.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Logically.

SPEAKER_05 16:51

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a direct line.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Yeah, right. It's Kant, Hobbes, maybe you make a quick pit stop at Locke, and then you're right on to Dostoevsky.

unknown 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

I'm trying to think like And then Strezoff.

SPEAKER_05 17:03

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, right. Uh we can just we can just um completely uh leave out um Jung.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Sure. Sure. Jung made no contributions to uh to the the field of psychology or philosophy of human nature at all.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Yeah um okay. And of course, all of this though goes back to Stoicism. All of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Modern for now until next year.

SPEAKER_05 17:30

Modern modern psychiatry is completely based on stoicism. Uh obviously, all of it. I think so. Anyway, all right. So the other thing that um Peterson, and we'll get to Dostoevsky here in a second, I think. I I think so. Um because it that it wasn't just a throwaway comment.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:46

Um so he in the process of talking about the Sermon on the Mount, Peterson get he he kind of gets to the idea of resentment and ideals. Yeah. And what he talks about is that um, again, remember heaven is the ideal. Um and then well, he also talks about how then hell is this idea that there is something worse than death. And so we kind of exist between those two extremes. Yeah, it's the polar opposite of the ideal. Right. And so um, so whether or not you believe that there are actual places, the we're talking about like how how we function in this world um from a psychological perspective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Is that fair? Sure. And I I think at some point, this is what's happened to me, the resident atheist. Yeah. Is that at some point I went, there needs to be this other category. It's not, it's not neuropsychology, it's not exactly psychology, it's kind of psyche, it's kind of, you know, emergent from all these psychological principles. Maybe you might call it spiritual.

SPEAKER_05 18:58

All right, go ahead. No, I I I firmly believe that there's I firmly believe there's a divine aspect. Um, but I'm not necessarily talking about a an other other being.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

No, I I just uh it it's a categorical question from people.

SPEAKER_05 19:14

Yeah, no, I feel like there's I think it's great. And I also think that the little bit I know um that uh Sam Harris might agree with you. Sure. Yeah. Which is getting him in a lot of trouble. Yeah. Because his real hardcore atheists are turning on him a bit.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

You always get in big trouble from your own side if you if you give any call.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

And I know we're we're get we're digressing here from a have you seen the trouble that Bill Maher's getting into lately?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

I've been watching that for the last few years, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:47

It's it's it's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Are you talking about um because he won't condemn Trump because he um went to have dinner with them, even though he completely still disagrees with them on so many different things.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

Aaron Powell Well, just the the way the the like the progressives now are accusing him of not being progressive.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

Right. Him, Joe Rogan, who has been he's a I mean, he's been a liberal leftist for since the nineties, right? Um sympathetic to Bernie Sanders for he's considered right wing now. Um there's there's a whole host. I mean, uh Brett Weinstein and and um Heather Hine, um uh they're they're long, I mean, like they're decades old liberals, right? Um and then now they're considered right wing.

SPEAKER_05 20:34

Which is interesting to me. Maybe this could be another topic for another day. Yeah. But it seems interesting to me that that those of us who have been considered to be more progressive are now being viewed as um moderate, or by some even conservative.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Yeah. It happens.

SPEAKER_05 20:53

It uh it happens, and it I mean uh it's an interesting it's an interesting thing to observe, especially from like a 30,000 foot view. Yeah. Like what does that mean for the shift of our culture?

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:05

Uh it's almost it's it's a little scary, I think, if we're gonna be honest. Um how okay, different topic. Yeah. Let me finish this one. Okay. So um, so the idea of resentment and ideals, and and again, so we look at heaven as this uh representation of the ideal. Yeah. And then what he talks about is that the further we get, the further we identify ourselves from being from the ideal, if it becomes so unattainable, we run the risk of um resenting it. And not only do we resent it, we begin to attack it, to destroy it.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Put ourselves in opposition to it. Yes. And um actually it's better to not be healthy, for instance. You might say an ideal of health. There might be an ideal of health. And you might and then you might get so far as to say, actually. You can be too healthy. Actually, it's better. It's it's actually it's actually an indication of some sort of character defect if you care too much about being healthy and if you care about being healthy at all. Right. There's the there's this uh and and maybe you're getting to this, so I apologize if I'm stepping on stepping on your point here. But one of the things that Peterson has, I would say taught me. Um it's something that goes along with kind of my temperament anyway. So um, so that helps. But um, you know, it's the thing that he talks about all the time, which is it if you're gonna make some sort of change, and he pulls from his um uh psychological discipline, like his actual practice, because he's a he was he's been in practice for like 30, 40 years, something like that. Yeah, he talks about some of that. Um, and that is if you're gonna make any kind of change, you have to start with the smallest change that you can make and that you would make. Because otherwise, exactly what you're talking about, you you could say, here's my ideal. My ideal is, you know, um, I don't know, my ideal is I'm gonna work out seven days a week, whatever. And I am, but right now I don't do anything. Okay. That's so far away, it might as well be a dream. And I can and and you can imagine becoming resentful of the fact that you feel, you feel insecure from it. You feel like, what's wrong with me? You feel like um it's too much, it's for other people, it's um, it actually is hurting my feelings because I'm not where I should be, you know? Um, and you can become resentful of that kind of thing and then put and then and then you can become in opposition to it. And he talks all the time about um how that because that shouldn't, that can't be your first step. Your first step might just be literally buying some clothes to go to the gym in. Yeah. The most, the absolute smallest thing in order to make those steps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:18

Yeah. He shares a story about a guy who's in his 30s that still lived with his mom and refused to clean his room. Like it was still he was still like a teenager. And he brought the um vacuum. He he's like, I'm gonna clean my room. He brought the vacuum. Have you heard the story? I've heard this. Brought the vacuum, put it in the doorway, and then spent two weeks just stepping over the vacuum into his dirty room. And so finally they had to agree, will you at least put your like socks away? Mm-hmm. You can leave the rest of the room exactly the way it is, right? Just put a sock away. And um, and he goes, it seemed silly, but that's what they had to do. So that goes back to this idea that then you but if if you can say, okay, for me, I need to do, I need to put socks away, then when you do, you're in where you need to be, even though you haven't reached the ideal.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

And it takes a level of humil. That's humility. Humility is being allowing yourself to be the fool, being ridiculous and small. And it kind of feels like, ugh, what's wrong with me? Right. But you know? Yeah. But if you can be humble in that, if you can humble yourself to do that, well then exactly what you're saying. Now you're on the path, and the path is the only point. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:39

So because ideally, your ideal should always be slightly out of reach. Right. Um, because oh, and just real let me finish this thought because I'm gonna get to that how it should always be slightly out of reach, right? Um, so it has to be has to be attainable, but it has to always be slightly out of reach because if it becomes completely unattainable, you resent it and you try to kill it. Yeah. Right. And that's the story of Cain and Abel is what he he suggests, right? And then so then Cain kills Abel, but then what does he have left? And he says, Oh my gosh, this is unbearable to me. When all of a sudden there is no ideal that you're shooting for, it becomes an unbearable life. So if if your ideal is so close that you can attain it, then once you have it, your life becomes unbearable. And this is where he talks about, and this is where I was uh saying Dostoevsky. Uh is it is it called Letters from the Underground?

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Uh yes. Actually, I think that is what it is. Letters from the underground. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:43

Hey, way uh congratulations, me.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

Um, and uh um because I I I like Tolstoy better. Anyway, um, but I've read Dostoevsky and I like it. Yeah. Uh I like him. So um anyway, because if you attain it, then all of a sudden you begin to destroy it because we also need adventure. We all like as humans, we also need like the challenge. Yeah. And so one of the things that was raised, and that is how would Dostoevsky I'm just putting you on the spot here. Um how does he talk about that?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Well, he says that if um humans were given paradise, the very first thing we would do would be to break it.

SPEAKER_05 27:32

Which is probably the story of uh Adam and Eve. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

And and I've heard uh Peterson talk about the fact that you can think of this from a neurochemical um perspective as well, which is that all of everything that that drives humans is about reaching for the goal. It's not actually about having the goal. We think the satisfaction comes from having the goal, getting to the mountaintop, um, you know, uh having the money that we're trying to strive for, having the influence that we're trying to strive for, getting the girlfriend, getting the whatever it is. Right. But actually, everything, if you want to think of from a psychic perspective, from a spiritual perspective, or from a neurochemical perspective, actually all the stuff is for the striving for. And so that's why, that's why he talks about like you do want to keep that just out beyond, because if you get it, if you actually got it, I remember hearing um Jim Carrey say one time, um, you know, take it with a grain of salt if you want. But uh he said, I my wish for everyone is that you would uh you would attain every dream you've ever had in your entire life, your biggest dreams. I wish for everyone that you would get it. Because if you got it, you would realize that that's not the point. And that's the only way you would realize it. And it it, you know, I don't know how many people have ever felt like they were um reaching for a goal and then actually got the full goal. It does feel good for a moment, but it really is like buying a new car. I mean, that fades really fast. Krista talks a lot, she's talked to forever about how um humans are made for struggle. And if we have no struggle, do not worry. We will find it.

SPEAKER_05 29:46

And that was one of the comments on the side. So this Jordan Peterson didn't talk about this in his lecture. But, you know, I mean, if I'm I wanna, I want to um consume as much as I possibly can while I'm on this platform. Right. And so I'm even reading like the comments that people are making. Yeah. And um, and then I even like completely geeked out one time and I left a comment. Um and um, but anyway, someone said, is this what's happening in the United States right now? In that um, our lives are historically easier than anyone's lives have ever been. The amount of wealth that the average American has is just unfathomable if you look at the history of humanity. And you just look around the globe, even right now, right? And it's like it's almost it's almost like it has become so comfortable for us that what we are doing is creating strife. We're creating like moral outrage about things that even even 10 years ago, I think, nobody would have been like furious about. But it's like it's like we can't handle being comfortable. And and so instead, what we do is we uh generate enemies, we create strife, we tear things down, we begin to destroy it. Like, and I don't know, part of my problem is I'm just not finding joy in the things that I used to find joy in. And um, and Denise, the other day, so like, for example, uh, and I I don't know if this connects or not, but as I was talking, it popped into my head. Um, here's how I got, here's how I got to where I am when I just made that comment, right? Because it does seem like that just came out of left field. Um The Olympics. Um right now, there seems to be moral outrage. And it just seems so fabricated to me because one of the Olympic athletes said, it's difficult right now, sort of representing my, he goes, I'm feeling like mixed emotions right now representing America because I'm not really thrilled with everything that that's happening in my country. And that like got such a massive backlash of he's on he's on American, he needs to be taken off the team, like all of this stuff. And I thought at the last Olympics, just say four years ago, if somebody had said something like that, we'd have been like, it wouldn't have even made the news. But now it's like we're just looking for ways to be just so angry. Um and so I thought about that as we were talking, and then I thought about like um, I haven't watched much of the Olympics in the past like years. I would have tried to consume, just uh like watch as much as I possibly could, right? Um, especially the winter. I've I've always enjoyed the winter Olympics more than the Summer Olympics. I just, I just do. Um I didn't watch the Super Bowl this year. I just had zero interest in it. And it wasn't like I was trying to be like anti, you know, what I just wasn't interested. Yeah. And um at first I thought, well, maybe it has to do with the, I just don't really care about either one of the teams. Yeah. Um, but I like there was just no it just held no interest to me. And it was funny because Denise, she she was like, Oh, are you too smart now to enjoy sports? And I was like, No. Um I just I I I would be very curious to know, like, if someone could tell me, like psychologically, why they think this is happening to me. But I just don't find sports right now other like I I I enjoy getting together for the social aspect of it, maybe still. Like we're gonna go this weekend. Denise and Robbie and I are gonna go watch Ohio State basketball because they're here in Nashville for a tournament, and that'll be fun. We're gonna go out, we're gonna go see a game. Um but to just sit on my couch and watch a game, even the Super Bowl, yeah. There's about 30 other things that I could right off the top of my head tell you I'd rather do.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah. Yeah, I I I mean, I get it. I um I'm not gonna diagnose you. That's not really uh my uh my area. I know. A few friends that might. Um I don't and I don't know if um I wouldn't make any comment about the general uh culture or society when it comes to the Super Bowl. And if people are more interested in it or less interested in it, I think that um that would be relying way too much on the anecdote and I haven't looked at any numbers and compared them or or anything like that. Um but it does strike me that I I was just telling my I was just telling our youngest that um the Super Bowl's interesting because it is a um it's a cultural tradition that we have, that and it's something that we don't we don't have very many of those. We have a couple that throughout the year, Christmas is one that's pretty universal. Whether you're um, I mean, really whether you're a Christian or you're an atheist or you're Buddhist or you're a Muslim or you're um, you know, Jewish or whatever, um, virtually everyone quote unquote celebrates Christmas in some way because it's virtually, it's a it's it's a cultural tradition. Um there's not any, I don't think there's any other ones throughout the United States, uh, you know, in the United States, maybe the Fourth of July. Um, but the Super Bowl is an interesting one because it it unites everyone. You can kind of get an idea that virtually everywhere, almost everyone's sitting down and watching it at the same time, right? Obviously it's not everyone, but it's like it's virtually. And so I think that's interesting. And if that breaks down, I think that is telling. I wouldn't, I wouldn't uh again make any kind of diagnosis from that, but if it did start to break down, I think that that would be telling in some way. It'd be notable. Um but you know, it this is I think that it's not probably um surprising that you and I are talking about this in this way. This whole like, you need to be striving, but then once you get there and you're like, what am I doing now? And you kind of want to break it so that you have to strive again. Cause yes, you and I are separated by 10 years, but we're both middle-aged. You know, you're kind of middle middle-aged, I'm kind of beginning middle-aged, but we're both middle-aged. And that's kind, I think that that's probably generally a universal experience of people who are middle-aged, is kind of getting to like, oh, okay, I've kind of gotten the general level of success in whatever vocation I'm in. I've raised my kids. I'm as long as everything's stable. I'm in a good marriage. You know, my wife and I love each other. We like each other. We've got a stable of friends. We've got some, you, you get, you get to the point where you kind of kind of influence in your community. People care about what you have to say, which gives you a level of esteem. That's a thing that you strive for when you're younger. You know, you've got this stability. I've got a car that's not going to break down tomorrow, you know, and I've got a house that that I own. And maybe even even if I don't own it, I, you know, whatever. Chickens that are providing eggs. You got chickens that are providing eggs. And you kind of like look around and go, like, okay, there's the the it's I think it's very easy, is my point, to get to that place and feel a level of um uh just uncertainty. Uh, what should I be doing now? And what's the stereotype for especially men who are in middle age? They start breaking stuff, right? They spend too much money, they get a divorce, they go have an affair, they um, you know, start drinking too much, they whatever. That's the stereotype. And I think the reason it's a stereotype is because that is the midlife crisis. The midlife crisis is the um that's a it's an era. This is our era. It's we're not the up-and-comers, right? I'm not I'm not 23 years old and hoping somebody will respect me. Right. Um now I'm like, what the hell's the point? What really should I be doing here? And you know, and please help me to not break these things now that now that it's good, you know. Um I don't know. That's not really an answer to your question, but it's just something I was thinking about when we were talking.

SPEAKER_05 39:16

Well, I think it's part of the reason that we continue to put challenges out there for ourselves. Yeah. Um because it what if we so if we acknowledge this, if we see this, and we we agree that there's a truth to this within um just again, all the different like psychological, theological, whatever, um, there seems to be that seems to be the human experience that the distance from the ideal or even re achieving your ideal are both being too far from your ideal or or actually being in your ideal are both just as dangerous. Right. Um what that should tell us is that you need to continue to create adventure for yourself. Continue to push yourself.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Um it's probably the reason that uh, you know, I I'm now trying to take time to walk over a hundred miles and trail.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

And it these things might seem arbitrary to somebody who's outside of and of course they would to anybody who's outside of you, but you know that it's not. It is the thing that you can see in front of you, and now it's a challenge. And you know, I yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:38

Well, yeah, and then okay, and because of that, then I need to drop. I'm at I think I still need to drop like 26 pounds. That's my goal. Yeah. So that I can do that next goal.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

And then from the next goal, what's the next goal?

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Right. Yeah. So um we just showed, um, we just watched Fight Club with um with Reed. Okay. Um, Ellis was out of town for the fall retreat. And so we were like, hey, what's a movie we've been wanting to show Reed? Yeah, what did you think? That we can't, and he loved it. He well, he said he liked it a lot. But there's the line in there where um uh Tyler has been started recruiting people into the house, right? And then he's um recruiting them now for Project Mayhem. And mayhem, my wife is gonna yell at me for saying mayhem. Anyway, um, and uh and he says, um, well, I guess at this point it was for fight club still, but he says fi club was the reason that you clipped your fingernails. It was the reason that you shaved your head, it was the reason that you um that you worked out. It was, you know, and the the I was just thinking about that when you're talking here. You set yourself this goal. It gives you a reason for trying to drop weight, it gives you a reason to drink less, it gives you a reason to go work out, it gives, you know, that then you've you you get those feelings like I am I'm on the path. You know, when I'm doing this, I'm on the path. Or I've messed up and I've fallen off the path. But at least now I know where the path is, you know, and I have an idea of that and I'm I'm progressing towards something. It's hard for me because I have a my temperament is to find what will work and then stay there forever, you know? And uh and I also have this strong affinity for mediocrity. At least that's how I've always described it. But again, Peterson kind of gave me a different way of reframing that. You know, my when I say like I I spoke or thought in defense of mediocrity, it really was this idea of like, um, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna do something. That's my deal with myself. You know, when it comes to like, again, I'll go back to working out as it's just an easy one. My deal with myself was I would do something. And when I didn't want to do it anymore, I would stop. But then I would just, I would be consistent with that, but I wasn't ever gonna push myself. And what I find is if I just do that, at some point I want to push myself. And that's not why I was doing it. I was just doing it so that I would have consistency, but then I would want to push myself. And that's really what he's talking about, also. So it's not exactly mediocrity, but you know, I say it kind of tongue in cheek. But anyway. Common ground. I mean, I think uh I think the whole the whole one uh the whole uh episode was kind of common ground this time.

SPEAKER_05 43:40

I think so too. All right. Well, thank you for indulging me on that topic. Yeah, it was fun.

unknown 43:44

All right.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

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