Megachurches or Progressive Pews

Feeling squeezed into a side? We are too. This conversation pairs a progressive Christian with a conservative atheist who’ve stayed close friends, even as the world begs us to sort, label, and cancel. We start with a striking claim from a Durham campus: progressive churches with welcome signs aren’t drawing students, while a megachurch outside town is bussing them in. That observation sparks a deeper question—are young adults craving clarity and particularity more than broad vibes of inclusion? And if a church sounds like an activist club, why not just join the club?

We dig into identity formation, mercy, and judgment through psychology and theology. Mercy soothes, judgment guides; together they grow a person. We unpack why a “you’re fine as you are” message can comfort those carrying wounds, yet leave ambitious hearts without a ladder. Then we turn to what makes church distinct. Instead of rallying around one issue, we argue for a community built on the “how”: honesty, humility, enemy-love, patient truth-telling. That posture can hold people focused on different causes without fracturing into purity tribes. The method—nonviolent speech, curiosity before certainty, courage without cruelty—becomes the witness.

Symbols matter, and they cut both ways. Whether it’s a national flag or a pride flag, signals that welcome some can quietly exclude others. We challenge ourselves to see people, not avatars, and to separate observation from judgment. One of us hopes humanity can outgrow tribalism; the other doubts it. Our shared ground is practical: work on the only person we control. Die to the parts that block love. Hold strong convictions without making enemies out of neighbors. If you’ve been looking for a space that demands growth while protecting dignity, you’ll feel at home here.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with one practice you’ll try this week to see the person behind the avatar. Your stories help others find common ground.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground.

SPEAKER_06 0:28

Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know. But we're friends.

SPEAKER_07 0:42

Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

Marker 6

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Damn, hang on one second.

Marker 8

Marker 9

SPEAKER_03 1:21

All right. Good all right. So um we've got a uh a clip here from a uh it's is it a progressive talk show?

SPEAKER_02 1:31

I actually don't know if it's a progressive talk show. I um uh I just it came up on my algorithm at one point. But she says at one point that uh larger megachurch is like a church that she wouldn't go to. So I kind of assume that she they're like sympathetic.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I but I don't I actually don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

All right. So um we're assuming, we don't know for sure, but we're assuming that the persons who are in this audio clip are themselves maybe identify more as progressive. They're they're Christian because um they're talking about church and they're talking about church growth. So go ahead and um give it a listen and then we're gonna um we're gonna discuss it. Respond to it. Yeah. Okay. I was about to say tear it apart, but that's not true.

SPEAKER_06 2:18

I found it so striking when I first moved to Durham. There was a a row of pretty progressive mainline churches all around Duke's campus that would always put up, you know, a pride flag. And then right before the semester started, they would put up a bunch of big signs saying, we welcome everyone. You know, they would do kind of vague ways of showing, like, we're one of the good ones, like we're one of the more progressive churches. And they would welcome students explicitly. Most of those churches are dying. The big evangelical megachurch the students have to get bused to outside of town has tons of students going there. And I think part of what's going on is if a student is interested at all in spiritual things and they look at the church across the street, they kind of go, everything you're doing, I can do in a social justice group on campus. Like nothing you are doing is distinctive. It doesn't ask anything of me. It aligns perfectly with all of the other opportunities for belonging and activism that already exist on campus. This church outside of town, and it's not a church that I would go to. I have some criticisms of the church, but there have been students I have talked to specifically who have said they believe something specific. Right. Like they believe something different than the world that I am in, and I'm looking for something that's different.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

I think this is part of the reason why progressive Christianity, not entirely, but part of the reason it isn't finding as many adherents among a younger generation, because they're looking for the grounding that comes with particularity.

SPEAKER_04 3:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

And the squishiness of a lot of progressive Christianity just doesn't offer that. All right.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

I got, of course I have thoughts. Yeah. Um, what were your initial thoughts though when you heard it?

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Uh I I had several thoughts. One of uh I think the first one that I had is that um you're always going to lose if you bet against the population's desire for a um purer, I'll use it that that word. You could say simple, but you could also say pure message.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

A honed message with a um refined goal message, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

And um, so I guess it doesn't, it it doesn't really surprise me what they're talking about, especially I think if you're talking about young people. Because what they're talking about is they're talking about late adolescent people, right? Um, 18 to 22. And um, you know, you can talk about the generations and um uh with uh generations being younger, longer, and all of that kind of stuff. But in general, I think somebody who's rolling into junior high all the way through college, and a lot of psychologists talk about this that are way smarter than I am, are looking for it's identity formation. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to do identity formation. And they they the vast majority of the time they would never be able to articulate this. But what they really want is someone to say, hey, uh, you can be more than you are right now. You have a purpose. Um, and if I can give you that purpose, great. That's even better. And if that purpose is something that I can that I can grab onto, wonderful. Um something bigger than who you are, there is something you were made for, and that's what you're and because that that's what they're trying to do is is develop their identity.

SPEAKER_04 6:04

And um, I think when we um well, okay, so if you're going to be stereotypical, not what's necessarily reality on the ground, but stereotypical, and you're gonna say there's one way of of approaching church, which is um how can I be the most fair? Uh you actually are sinful, you have a sinful nature, but take heart that there is a plan for your redemption, okay?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

And we and you can and should be more than you are right now, okay? And then you go the other way and go, God loves you exactly as you are right now, okay. God's not asking you to change. God loves you exactly like you are, okay? And you look at those two, if again, I'm being stark here for a purpose, for a reason, okay. I think somebody who's 32 years old and has has gone through some life and has some pains and has some hurts and has some, you might even say traumas. That second way is probably gonna feel really there's gonna be some healing there, right? This is gonna sound like I'm saying the young people never have any pain, and that's not what I mean. But I mean, come on, the vast majority, okay, of 17 and 18-year-olds in our country, vast majority, whatever walk of life you come from, you're not living in a war-torn world. You've had a couple of breakups. I understand people have, I'm ple believe me, please. I have my own stories, okay? But what you're what you're probably feeling is a a desire to be more that feels like hope. And this one over here that says, however you are exactly right now is okay, totally fine. Nobody wants you to change, nobody expects you to change, you know? I think can feel like it, it can feel like, oh God, this is it, this is everything. Right. Oh, I'm racked by anxiety and and depression and I'm, you know, self-centered, all of that. This comes, you know, self-centeredness, and there's nothing. There's no, and nobody has any expectations of me. You know what I mean? Again, I'm being stark. I'm not trying to say that anybody says exactly these things. But if you're gonna go the two pathways, I can understand, it seems reasonable to me, that the one would appeal to younger people and the other might appeal more to older people. Maybe. There's a thought.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Yeah, no, uh uh all kinds of thoughts. Um, even more while you were talking than what I initially jotted down from the video. Um but uh let's see, I was trying to um trying to think where I had written this down.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Um, okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

So um one of the things I I'm gonna talk about Jordan Peterson again real quickly. So he talks about how frustrated he would get with his with his uh um co-workers, his peers at the university he's teaching at. Uh-huh. Excuse me. Because uh they would be like encouraging the 18-year-olds to be involved in activism. Yes. And he said that they they're not ready to be involved in activism for a lot of the same reasons that you're talking about, right? And that it actually, if you're gonna be worried about activism, it should be the professors that have already sort of gone through and like the Valley of Despair and all that kind of stuff that we were talking about with the Dunning um Kruger Kruger stuff. Okay, so that's one thought. The other thing, too, is um just another thought, and it might not really contribute to what we're talking about here, but that popped into my head is um when Jung talks about uh the the reason for the purpose of the book of Revelation tagged on to the end of the New Testament is because it seems to balance off of it provides balance to all of the mercy and um that the rest of the New Testament seems to be about, and that you also have to sort of have something in juxtaposition to that. But there has to be a challenge to grow, right? And and so what Jung, the way I understand it anyway, and it's very possible I don't understand Jung, um, because I haven't studied him as much as sure um others. And so maybe I'm experiencing the Dunning Kruger effect right now. Sure. But um But this is our show, so yeah, right. And so um, but but the way I understand it is that if all you have is the mercy um and none of the potential judgment, then there's no room, there's no purpose for growth. Which is what you're talking about, right? Okay. So yes, all of those things. I do have some questions though, and I wish I could talk to the people that did that. One is I do hope they are progressives. I I really do hope so, because it uh what they're identifying is something that I think would be helpful for progressives to identify. Yeah. I hope it's not just um just a traditionalists criticizing the progressive church. Sure. Right. Yeah. Because I do think there's some things that the uh and and one of the things. So, you know, there's some there's some observations that I think are observations and not facts, but that are presented as facts. Like she talks about the small churches are all dying. Well, she doesn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

I had the exact same thought. Yep, you're totally right.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

That was she's never she if she's never stepped, it doesn't sound to me like she's ever stepped foot in them.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

And and what would that even mean, dying? Yeah. You'd have to, you'd have to give me some sort of definition of dying.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

It's a it's a sweeping, it's but you know what, it's the culture we live in. I get it. You you make these sweeping statements about stuff as if they're facts, and it's simply an observation. Sure. Right. Um in fact, it's probably even actually dying is a no you know I think.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Dying is a judgment.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

I was about to go to the nonviolent communication stuff, right? It's a that's a judgment. That's not an observation. Right. Right. Right. And so she's stating a judgment as if it's a fact. And you've given me no evidence. Yeah, absolutely not. So so that that means nothing to me to be like, and all these progressive churches are dying. First of all, that's hyperbole. Um, and second of all, it's a judgment. Sure. All right. Um so, but I do think that they're on to something where if if all you're offering is uh activism, then what's the purpose? Because I can I can join a student organization. I'm and I get, I get, I I don't know how this happens anymore, but I mean, I'm 54 years old. I'm not even a student anymore. Um and I'm still getting text messages from people inviting me to come to these be part of these organizations. It's probably because I've talked at some things like that.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Up or something.

unknown 13:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:34

Your name came up somewhere. It did. And um yeah, recently I've been invited to be part of the Wilson County Um Democratic Moms group. I'm like, well, I'm I'm not a mom. Um anyway, uh so but I do think I do think it's really important to identify um that there that there is something that needs to happen. Because if a church is simply another um activist group, I don't see the purpose for it. Just join the plethora of nonprofits out there that are trying to do the same work. Which what's your point? And I think that that gets to, in my mind, uh some of the stuff we're talking about because the way I understand the church and the reason that I'm having a hard time sometimes answering questions that um I'm being asked by our lay leader is um I think that often what holds groups together is the what we do. The way I understand Christianity is what holds the group together is the how we do.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Um when I when I look at the New Testament in particular, it seems to me it's a lot about how are we how we how we function together as a community, how we engage the world. Um it's not specifically the what we're engaging the world about. Um it's more about like there's gonna be an incl- there's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Is it like what's our posture in all of this? Yeah. What's the posture we take?

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Yeah, so it's not what okay, so for example, um the activism part, right? She she mentions in her the the clip that we listened to, she talks about um the pride flag. Um yes, I think that that is something that uh that Christians are going to um that some Christians are gonna feel called to um support, right? LGBTQ plus inclusion and and I mean our denomination that I'm a part of, we just went through all of that. But not every not every Christian is going to be feel a call to be involved in that. Right. And so I think that one of the things that the church does is when they say this is what we're about, you're automatically really limiting who's involved in the church.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Right. Because it's no longer about the greater, it just becomes about the thing, that one thing. And so what I'm saying is that the church is about, yeah, if if that's your thing, then it becomes how do you engage that though? And that's that's the unifier. Right. So like if you are concerned about um economic justice, right? And someone else is concerned about um gender inclusion, well you're both you can both be part of the same community because it's not about the the what you're engaged in, but it's about how you're engaged in those things that you're um convicted on. And so you can say, yeah, we're part of this community because we believe in um not turning people into villains. That we're gonna understand that people that disagree with us that they're not actually villains, and we need to try to bridge gaps with them. And so what I'm saying is that one of the dangers, and and I feel like it's fair for me to talk about this because I do often get um lumped in with the progressive Christian community. Which is interesting to me because a lot of times when we're talking about the progressive Christian community, what we're actually talking about is there is there social stances.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Yes. Right? Um That's how you would know. Which is to me, um that's not a that doesn't mean you're a progressive Christian.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Sure, but that's what everyone means. Which is just not you.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Which is that's a there's a problem with that.

SPEAKER_02 18:16

Um I I agree, I understand um what you're saying there. Yeah. But that's what everyone thinks.

SPEAKER_03 18:25

I know, right? Well, because I know people that are progressive socially that are some of the most conservative theological people I've ever met. And so I wouldn't consider them a progressive Christian. They're you just you're just a Christian who happens to be socially progressive. Yeah. Sure. I get you. Um, and so I think that what happens is is when is when I think, and this is actually gonna make the point. Maybe I don't, I don't know anymore.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Well, we'll be here either way.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah. Um it w is that if um if being part of this church, whatever that church is in Durham, um, and I'm sure I've driven past them because my parents live right there, um you're identifying socially. Like you're you're identifying yourself with a social position, not a spiritual one. And um, and so you're saying that it doesn't matter what you believe about the nature of the cosmos. What really matters here is what you believe about the nature of human sexuality, or what you believe about the nature of economic justice, or what you believe about the the um the treatment of immigration, of immigrants, right? And all of a sudden you've you've really sort of removed a much larger aspect of what it means to be uh a Christian. Um and so of course, if if your entire purpose of of existence is any of those social issues, you're I would argue you're not even really a church anymore. You're a social activist group. Um and of course it's gonna decline.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah, I mean, I think yeah, it's I initially what I think is like, well, this is what would happen if you took humans and then you eliminated you just you decided that um there wasn't a spiritual realm you and you killed God. Because the thing is, you're not gonna kill the religious instinct. So you're still gonna have the religious instinct, it's just gonna be transferred to to something else. Now there's the other aspect of it, which is that God always loves the things that I love, hates the things I hate. Always. So it's just a it's just a matter of what are the things that um seem without me thinking about it, seem right and seem wrong. Those are always gonna be the things that I think that God wants me to push for or push against, right? And so yeah, then it's gonna come out in these social these um social issues.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

And I think that once you make once you make church about a social issue, and even if you're like, oh, well, we're again we're like all of these social issues, fine.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

But those aren't comprehensive because you could also yeah, the the ones that we would say always end up being, I will just say, um, more leftist issues, right? You could also say um marriage fidelity. I really care about people being not committing adultery and being faithful to their to their spouse. Is that not that's That's clearly an issue. You could say, I really care about fiscal responsibility with people, being a good steward. Okay. Uh, you could say, I really care about um, you know, uh being very uh conscientious about the education of my kids. And so I want to homeschool my kids so that I am not right. These are some things you could also say, and they would also be social issues, and then they would also have the same, you could have the same kind of religious fervor behind it. And I say that because plenty of people that I know do, right? Have that kind of religious fervor behind these things and their social issues.

SPEAKER_03 22:34

Yeah. Your physical health.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Exactly. So and but I I want to ask you, what are you what's your feeling about the topic that I brought up about kind of well, say it this way, the division between a church that really cares about or has pushes for these kind of group social issues versus a does the church, well, does the church or should the church really focus on individual development, individual like what we were talking about, like the ideal for an individual and talking to them and you should, you know, be more truthful. You should be more, you know what I mean? Like speaking to that aspect of human experience.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Yeah, here's where I kind of come down on that. Um I I think that I think there's absolutely truth to the fact that if we tell people that right where you are is exactly where you need to be and you're just perfect the way you are, that we're doing them an actual disservice. Um and that can be like you can just like listen to last episode, I think, and talk about that, right? Um, this idea of the ideal. Yeah. And be you have to constantly be, otherwise you become destructive. Yeah. And um, and so yeah, I mean, if you tell everyone all the time, you're just loved just the way you are, you know, uh, and that might be true, um, but it doesn't mean that, but if but that, but to do how do I want to say that? Okay, it might be true that you're loved just the way you are by everyone around you, but the fact of the matter is you will end up not loving yourself if you become complacent in just the way you are. You'll become self-destructive. Mm-hmm. I I think that that's I think that there is uh there is there's science even behind that. Right? Forget just the theology of it. There's science behind that. And so there has to be this constant chat, and again, that goes back to the young about the reason that, because it seems so weird that the book of Revelation is at the end and it's very judgmental. And there's the sword. And so there seems to be that maybe there's he's he's getting, he's onto something there when he talks about sort of to have a juxtaposition against the just everything you're just so wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Um well the the the resurrection story is like it's done. It's all done then. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

And if it's all done, he well then But the but then there's also the well, Paul talks about the idea of the you still have to die to yourself daily. Sure. Right. And so the it's a model.

SPEAKER_04 25:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

The crucifixion and the resurrection is a is a uh a universal truth of the reality of the cosmos. Right. I'm sure some people will be like, no, no, it's not. But that's the that's the concept. That's the concept of it, right? And so so anyway, but here's what I would say is but the purpose, what is the purpose of becoming a better person? And I think that that when we begin to understand that uh when when Jesus talks about the kingdom of God, right, and and we don't actually know what Jesus is, but when the authors talk about the kingdom of God and they have Jesus talk about the kingdom of God, they're they're riffing off of a lot of what Paul is talking about with the universal inclusion of Gentile and Jew and male and female, right? And they're talking about this, and and so uh what he's talking about is this idea of everyone being able to to flourish. Yeah. And and so I think that that then uh that then begins to address if as a church you identify like if you're like we are all about this particular social issue. If you're gonna do that, that's fine. It's fine. You you do that. But this is where you're gonna have, but this to me, this is where though if you want to be different than the rest of any other group that is that is advocating for whatever social issue you've decided to advocate for, you have to do it in such a way that you don't treat everyone who disagrees with you as an enemy to be defeated. Because the minute you do that, you're just like any other advocacy group. And I think that that is a point that I would want to make with those persons that were talking in that video, is like, I absolutely agree with you that if all we are is an advocacy group, an advocacy group for this particular issue, and and we are willing to stand with you and throw stones at everyone who disagrees with us and call them evil and that they uh they stand in the judgment of God, right? And everything like that, then we've become basically Hillsborough Baptist Church. Just on the other side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah, it's it's um it reminds me of, you know, you and I have talked about this before that like it's very common for many churches to fly an American flag. And we don't. We also don't fly a pride flag.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

We like right, because the idea is like no matter what, if you are, if you're flying a flag, you can to yourself say, this is what the flag means.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

I'm just trying to show that it that the the the that whoever that is, that you're welcome here.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

Right. It's just for inclusion, or if it's the American flag, it's for um it's for patriotism, and we love the people who have come before us and blah, blah, blah. Um, but it always means because it's a symbol, and symbols are maybe more important than than the you know, matter around us in terms of oh yeah, we worship our symbols. Right. That's what we live by, is our symbols. Um it of course means if you're not for this, then you're not well not welcome. You're not part of this. You're not part of this. We're the type of people who do X. And so if we're if if you're trying to be the place that is truly universal, you can't have a we're the type of people who do X. And if you don't do X, you're not welcome here.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Yep. Yeah. And I think and so for me, let me, I can just speak for my own. You talked about the idea that God often um loves what I love and hates what I hate.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:32

But if we understand God as as the um the universal Christ, the way that uh Richard Rohr talks about it, or um, you know, the way I've been talking about it lately with the with Logos theology and cosmic, the cosmic Christ that you read about in Paul and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Then what that does is it does not allow me to reduce God to having the same preferences that I do. What it does is it challenges me to begin to not show deferential treatment in any situation. And right, it doesn't mean that I don't have my convictions. It doesn't mean that I don't see behaviors that I disagree with or that I but for me, uh the way I'm trying to understand this is it, but it but the category becomes different. Is it blocking is it blocking the flourishing of all things? Right? Um, or is it contributing to the flourishing of all things?

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Um, and I think that that's I think to me anyway, that's a better way of framing things. Yeah. Um and so so for example, uh I have a friend who feels very strongly um and and I I agree, I agree with his his position on LGBTQ plus inclusion. Obviously, I agree about it. I'm still a United Methodist minister, and I'm glad to see the changes that we made. Yeah. Right. But I have an issue with his social media posts because he doesn't realize it. Um and I but the things that he's posting are very divisive. Sure. And because he's basically what he's doing is he is doing the um uh virtue signaling. Sure. Right. And he'll even go so far as to post like, look how persecuted I am. Sure. Right. And it's because those people are so evil. Yeah. Okay. If the then just work for an LGBTQ plus inclusion organization. Stop being a pastor. Because as a pastor, you have to be loving and accepting of the people whose behavior you disagree with. It doesn't mean you accept the behavior, sure, but you have to accept the person. Right? Uh and and that's hard.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

It's like the hardest.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

And people don't get it, right? And then people get mad at you because they're like, well, well, then what you're you're just telling them they're that that they can continue to do it. It's not what I'm saying. Right. I'm saying if you go out on weekends for fun and you beat up persons of color, I can still love you. But man, I will, I will tell you, we'll have discussions that that behavior is wrong. But I have to be able to do it in such a way that it's about what I'm for, not what I'm against. Right. I and it's easy for me to say because what happens is whenever you start identifying what you're against, it always it always, it always, always, always results in identifying who the enemy is. Sure. Because the enemy is the one that per is per the one that's perpetuating what is wrong.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

I would even go so far as to say that from a psychological perspective, what you're actually typically doing is using the what I'm against as a proxy to um uh be against an image of someone that you don't like already. It it the these are you if we've lived in this world beyond six years old, we have people we don't like and people we like. And they change, that's for sure. But it's I mean, that that's what we and we talked a little bit about this um a couple weeks ago. Uh I and I I said that I noticed this in in myself. Um I don't like it, but I know it's what I do. I know it's my instinct, I know it's inside me, which is I just there's images of types of people I just don't like. So I like it when I feel like they're doing something that I can say is, you know, wrong, ethically unsound, craven, selfish, stupid, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

I like that. Um, and I don't like it when I'm confronted with they're maybe a little bit more virtuous, or they were in a situation where the person that I do like, the image, the image, the avatar of the person that I do like, come on, I shouldn't have done that. Or whatever. Very, very easy for me to. I I might not even know that I have covered it up before I covered it up in my mind. You know? Yeah. And uh, yeah, it's a this, it's that's a really that's that's really difficult, which is why for myself, I want the purpose of, you know, anything that I'm gonna take out of church to be about going inward to myself. You know, I I've gotta die to myself constantly.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

Um that we know how to live together better.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Well, that's your world. I can't even get to the so yet, so that my point is not to disagree with you necessarily. You can disagree with I know, I'm saying I'm not sure that I am disagreeing or or agreeing with you yet. What I'm saying is right now with this, it's not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you that that needs to be the point. It's that I can't even get to that because I find myself to be so childish and it's so overwhelming to try to turn and look back at myself again, that the whole point has to just be to turn back and look at myself again. You know what I mean? If that makes sense. Like it's just like that.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

No, I and I think that's absolutely fine. It's absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

What I would say is don't stop there. Don't don't because um I think ultimately it comes down to acknowledging our connection to everything. Sure. I agree with that conceptually. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

And for me, where I'm at right now in my life, uh, and my spirituality is that is is the biggest challenge. Um, it is the place where I can see that let me put it this way. Let me let me t step back from that. It is the place where I see the greatest potential for growth.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

For yourself.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Yeah. I can um this is this is the place where I feel massive transformation. Is when I can understand, when I can take the time to understand my connection to everything and to everyone. And then that challenges me to change the way I interact with everyone and everything. Sure. Yeah. Um, and uh, it doesn't mean that I'm still not for LGBTQ plus full inclusion, that I'm not for uh people uh having access to equal rights regardless of their um their skin color, right? It doesn't mean that I'm no longer like have the same convictions that I have. It just changes the way I hold my convictions. Um because if I if I truly believe, and I think this is something that I would challenge a Christian on, uh, and and my friends that I see who um and I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I'm not even sure they realize they're doing it. Right? Because the culture we live in it blinds us to the fact that we've turned people into enemies.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

I think we're getting more aware of it. But in that, well, that's just natural state of being. Yeah. That's the natural state of community back for call it two million years when uh our common ancestors split from from our, you know, split from the chimp. You know, I think uh I think chimps do that. I think our common ancestors do that. I think that's I think that it is the reality of forming groups. We form groups because you're one of us and not one of them. That's what we do. That's the most basic.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

And I do think that until unless we understand that our group is larger than we think it is, if we if we continue to cling to tribalism the way that we are right now, and we don't expand our understanding of our tribe, it will end up being our demise.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

This is where you're a one and I'm a five. When I hear you say that, I go, of course we will cling to our tribal. Cling to our tribalism, it's the same thing as clinging to gravity. Yeah, and then we'll destroy ourselves. Yes, of course we will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

And so is that our is that our common ground that if if we don't do anything, I think we can do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

The way you yeah, the way you frame it implies that we could and will progress beyond this or or change it. That is my hope. I have absolutely no hope in that. I uh the maybe that's faith. Of course that's faith. Of course that is. It must be. I think our common ground in this is that in order to do this, the only thing that we can work on is ourselves. So I am 100% on board with the project of working on Lucas in all of this, right? Continuing to get Lucas to see that whatever um person is throwing down code words to show that um they're on the left, you know, that they're they are me. They're this, they're the same as the person that I love the most. And the reality is the more I get to know who they are as a person and not an avatar, the more I love them. I do. I just can't help it. I can't help it. It's not because I'm a good person, I'm not. It's because I just don't think you can help it. If you get to know the person, you know, it's like that Goodwill hunting scene when um Robin Williams' character is sitting next to Matt Damon's character on the bench. And he goes, but really, I don't give a shit about any of that because there's nothing I can't learn about you that I can't read in a book unless you're gonna tell me about you. And then I'm all in. Right. That's how I feel. There's nothing I can't learn about your avatar that I haven't already learned on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or any of them. And there's nothing you can't learn about my avatar either. I'm not trying to say I'm outside of this. I do the exact same thing. I throw down all the code words also. You can't learn anything about my avatar that you couldn't just read somewhere and you know exactly what it is and what I'm doing. But if you want to get to know me, it's gonna have to do with things having to do with my mom or how I feel about my grandma right now, or about my kids, why I don't care about chasing dreams, why, you know, these types of things. Yeah. Right. And the same is for them.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

Yeah. So since we're here's a personal growth area for me.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

As I think about all this. I have to realize that the thing that bothers me when I when I look out and I see some of the things that I see that appear to be bothering me, yeah, is I attach to it um a judgment.

unknown 41:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Like we were talking about earlier with the woman and her comment. Yeah. It's not an observation, she's making a judgment, right? And that's um Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and nonviolent communication.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Right? That's he talks about a lot about that.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Um, is that when I am observing behavior, I'm placing a moral judgment on it. Sure. And where I'm judging it is self-righteousness. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

And I think the reason I'm doing that is because I'm freaking self-righteous.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

Okay. Uh-huh. So, all right.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

So the common ground is we both think Jeff is self-righteous.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

I mean, look, man, you can call yourself self-righteous. I will call myself elitist in condescending, and we'll both be honest at the end of the podcast. How about that?

SPEAKER_03 42:53

Sounds good. All right, thanks.

SPEAKER_05 42:58

Thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description. The more people we have living on common ground, the better the world will be.