Awareness Without Understanding Is Not Wisdom

Division sells, but it also shrinks our minds. We sat down—progressive Christian and conservative atheist, still close friends—to ask why outrage feels so good, why it changes so little, and how we can teach our kids to seek depth instead of dopamine. A local student walkout becomes our lens: what motivates teens to protest, when slogans help or harm, and how to support conviction without feeding contempt.

We dig into the gap between awareness and understanding, tracing the curve from Dunning–Kruger’s Mount Stupid to Neil Postman’s warning about media that widens our view while thinning our insight. Along the way, we talk developmental pacing for kids, the ethics of telling hard truths at the right time, and the difference between a vigil and a protest. Anger gets a fair hearing as a signal, but we refuse to crown it a virtue; strategy begins when we ask why we’re angry and what value we’re willing to act on without dehumanizing anyone.

Our playbook is practical: start local, own small commitments, and measure progress where feedback is real—work ethic, relationships, and service. If you believe education should change, teach. If you care about healthcare or immigration, learn the history, map stakeholders, and choose actions within reach. We model conversation tools that keep friendships intact while testing ideas hard: steelman first, separate people from positions, and build stamina for ambiguity. The goal is to become the kind of person others can lean on when life gets heavy, because strong people make strong communities.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with one practice that helps you choose engagement over outrage. Your stories shape where we go next.

©NoahHeldmanMusic

https://livingoncommonground.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_06 0:42

Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

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SPEAKER_02 1:16

Morning. Yup. Uh so I'm glad to be back actually in studio with you. You're all refreshed. I don't know about that. I I worked the whole time I was there. It was nice though. Cause even as you're working, you're looking out the window at the beach. So that was nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

That's pretty luxurious.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

It was, but I will say I don't like the way I looked on the video. Oh, I didn't look why why? Because my face looks puffy in the video. And I'm vain. Don't forget. You know. And so it matters to me. And and of course, only people that are going to see it are the people that subscribe to the Substack because it's it's available on Substack, but the video itself, like just the description. Yeah, just the description goes to everybody.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Well, now you know the video itself goes to Substack. Now you know people, go subscribe and you can see just Puffy Face. Puffy face. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Isn't that great? If that's not a promo for it, I don't know what is. All right, but speaking of the Substack account, you had mentioned that you wanted to discuss one of my recent articles.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Yeah. Well, I mean, I had um thoughts. Uh yeah, I mean, I had I had seen um I'd read your your uh post, and I don't remember what it was called, but um oh it was oh you did the Jesse Jackson pastor thing where you rhymed rhymed it. Oh, it's engagement or enragement.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Engaged or enraged. What we're really teaching our children about the world. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Yeah. So um yeah, I and I I read through the whole thing and and liked it a lot. And I reached out and told you that I liked it and I agreed with it, and um I agreed with um with uh the underlying tenor um of what we are I I think that it is a good segue into um uh a discussion or a or a contemplation of how we should uh be approaching um our kids' development when it comes to social development in general. And I think about this a lot, and this is my um as we get into this conversation, I think it'll be clear that this is just my temperament, anyway. I think you make a lot of good points, but mostly I think you make good points because they line up with how I feel anyway.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

Yeah um but I think about this a lot, like should you know, should we be okay, so in the world there are there are uh uh little babies who get killed. That's a fact on purpose. We don't probably need to talk to four-year-olds about that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

That seems pretty obvious, right? Yeah. Um but if you said we shouldn't be talking to 28-year-olds about that, we should be protecting them from that, it's not that would seem weird also. Sure. And so I think that there's a there's some sort of range of developmentally appropriate positioning that we can think about as adults when it comes to kids. And um, I think what happens a lot of times is you know, I as an individual can look back and see the progression of my of my understanding of the world, whether it's more right today than it was 15 years ago or not. Right. And I feel I think that everyone is in this exact same situation. Ironically, no matter where you are, you feel that right now you have kind of the the truth of how things are. And you can look back and you can go, well, I thought differently back then, but now I know. Right. And I think that there is a an argument that's made, even if it's not made explicitly, but there's an instinct that I should not be giving my kids or anybody else this 15 years ago version of me that I now think is wrong. Right? I should be only telling the truth. Right, Hitchens used to say it is immoral to lie to children. And that seems like a very prima facie correct thing to say, right? But we all know instinctively, if we start to get into the nitty-gritty of that, yeah, that that is not it's not that just that it's not appropriate at all levels of development, it's not healthy, it's not it it it very easily could skew someone's psyche, you know? And so, you know, your um your post about how should we be encouraging kids um to interact with the world, right? You to use your word to engage with the world, um I thought was uh was a really good contemplation to think about this kind of thing. How what's what's appropriate to be what what is it that we want from the for what is it that we want for a 15-year-old? What kind of life do we want for them for the next year, right? Not when they're 28, but right now, right. Um yeah, so I thought it was I thought it was good. Maybe you can kind of uh talk about what your thoughts were on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah. So um what had happened was we had the uh it was I wrote it the day of the walkout at the high schools here in Mount Juliet. Well, in Wilson County, right? And uh well actually I think it I think I wrote it, that was on a Friday. I sat down Saturday morning at my kitchen table with uh a pot of coffee and um began to just sort of process what had I had I had witnessed over the last 12 to you know 16 hours. And um, and so if you don't live here in in Wilson County, Tennessee, what had happened was I don't know how they coordinated, but all of the different high schools coordinated that they were going to walk out in protest of uh the treatment that people are receiving um that we're seeing um at the hands of the federal um agents ICE. Okay. That was the general thing that that seemed to be like what they were trying to do. Um the response to that was very interesting. So like what I saw was um high school students, and then adults attacking the high school students, some like literally showing up, uh, a couple, uh, one went viral with like he began to like shout and scream and threaten you know high school students about this, an adult driving by. Um, and bravo to our police department who did an excellent job of doing what our law enforcement is called to do, which is um, you know, protect and serve. And and they were there and they protected the children that were there. Um, so I I saw that going on, and then I saw my own son who called me and said, Hey dad, can I there's this walkout, can I go? And my response to him was if you feel strongly about this particular issue, go. You know, that's fine. And um, now he's 18. And uh, my understanding at the time was he could sign himself out. We have since found out that he could not sign himself out, and so there were some repercussions for that. Um, basically just a little slap on the wrist of, hey, don't ever do that again. But that's because he doesn't get in a lot of trouble. So um anyway, so but then so I'm thinking my son's part of this, this, this uh walkout, right? And then um, and then I saw other students there that I know as I look in the pictures, and I saw the different signs that were being held up. And um, and so like some of the signs I was like, oh, that's really good. And some of the signs I was like, come on. You know, uh, one of them was um just a repeat of what uh is sort of is one of those throwaway um phrases that everyone like both sides have these throwaway phrases. You know what I mean? Like they're they're almost they're nonsensical, but they sound really powerful, right? And one of them was like, you can't, you can't what how what was it? It was the same thing that the singer, uh what's her name, got in trouble for. And like the indigenous tribe in um California said, Thank, when can we expect your land given to us? Oh. Um, Billy Eilish.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

You can't be like illegal in stolen land or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Right, which is it's it's a nonsense. It's a non sequitur. It sounds really powerful, right? And then so I saw that sign, and I was and and so then I started thinking to myself, it was like, so I again I don't want to, you know, because people are like, oh, they don't even know, they're just doing with what their parents and and they're like they're really sort of making fun of the students. And I thought, well, that's not that's not fair either. Now, and then I began to think, well, in all sort of these protests, you have some that kind of are informed. Because I'm willing to bet that there are some of those kids that take their politics and take it kind of seriously, and they've done a little bit of looking into and they and they're bothered by or whatever. Some of them are there because they hear their parents and their parents are talking to them and sharing things with them. Some of them were there because um they've seen, they've seen people that they idolize taking a particular stance, whether it be a singer, an actor, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

I think some of them are probably there because they want to be against their parents.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

Very possible, right? I mean, we don't know all some of them were there because they got to walk out of school.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Right?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

It's always gonna be the case.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

And so so it's with any group, you like to just say this is what this group is about, you you really don't know. There seems to be this common thread, though, that this is why we're here, but why, but why do we care about that? Or do we even really care about that? That's brought us together. So, my own son, he wants to do this, he wants to walk out. Now, I know uh my children tend to lean more more progressive when it comes to their politics. Um, and that's because of the house they grew up in, right? And they haven't they haven't been out on their own yet enough to sort of develop like you were talking about. At 17, 18 years old, his politics could be very different when he's 28, 38 than it is right now. But it he's he's sort of picking up a little bit of of me in particular. Um and uh so anyway, but then like 30 minutes later, he shows up at the house. I'm like, what are you doing? I thought you were good, but he said, Dad, I walked out and I saw some of the people and I saw some of their signs and I heard some of the things they were saying, and I want to be part of it. So I came home. All right. So that's what kind of got me thinking about all of this.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

And I was like, Did he say, did he give any detail on what was on the signs that he didn't want to be a part of?

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Yeah, he did. It it was just it was it was the things like F-Ice and all that. He was like, I just didn't he just didn't want to be part of that. Yeah. Because he is starting to pick up on the thing about it it it's not just enough to know what you're against. You have to know why why that bothers you and what you're for. And even though he himself may not quite we we all struggle, I think, with being able to explain that. In fact, I think that most people this is this is probably hyperbole, but it seems to me like the vast majority of persons that I see on social media who are making like like are are very um engaged in activism, but they do not know how to do it without identifying who the enemy is, who the perpetrator is. They can't like I just that's what activism is. But but they don't but and I guess that's the difference between like when I when I talk about the difference between active like a protest and a vigil. Yeah. Right. And that's kind of the way I sort of think, right? But but what I'm one of the things I'm saying is, and this is good, this will get back to the article, is that I have to know why that why I feel enraged or or upset or hurt or frustrated when I see this behavior or when I hear these things, or when I experience whatever it is I'm experiencing. It's not enough to just be enraged because enraged gets us nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

You know, it's a really good point. And I think that um if you pay attention, I think if people pay attention, they will be able to see that we use euphemisms like passionate um and it bec and we use it uh as a virtue, that it is a virtue to be uh passionate that somehow is uh is is moral, right? It's it's good. Yeah, like strength is one instead of just being neutral, instead of being a neutral thing, right? Uh like being hungry is not a virtue or a right or or something that that you should be ashamed of, right? It just is. It's just neutral. And being passionate about something I think only becomes a virtue when you live in Rome and all of your needs have always been met. And so you and and so this this is your default is like everything is great. I think that's how things like passion become virtues.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Anyway, um, sorry, go back to your No, no, so um so anyway, so all of that is going through my mind in about 12 hours, right? Um, and I and I began to think about I think that what we're doing is as an as a society, we have lost the ability to be engaged and we simply mistake our uh we believe that we're doing something when we're enraged.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

And we feel like we're making change by being enraged, but enraged doesn't make change, it makes enemies and it draws lines and it creates camps. Engaged is the way that problems uh where issues are resolved is by engagement. And so I thought to myself, if adults can't do this, what chance do our kids have if we're teaching them that to be enraged is to be engaged? Right. Um, and I thought about that because I because like I can remember, and again, this goes back to something we were talking about before we hit the record button, this idea of that like all of your observations are subjective. There's no such thing as just sort of an objective observation, right? And so like as a kid, and I would or even as a teenager, I'd think back and fondly of like the 70s and the 80s, right? And and um, and even as a young adult, I'd be like, oh, things were so much more simpler than more simpler, I think.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

More simple, more simpler.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah, I can't do both. Well, no, actually, I could. I was just really ramping it up. So anyway, um yeah, thank you uh for correcting my English. Yeah, you're welcome. So um, so anyway, but they weren't. They were just simple for me.

SPEAKER_04 18:00

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Because I went back and I was like, well, wait a second, Jeff, you were born um during Vietnam. Right? You you were born when um students were shot on the campus of Kent State. Right?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Um you spent your elementary school years in the decade where there were so many political bombings and assassinations in the United States that the media stopped reporting on them because they were boring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:34

That's what the 70s. I'm from Cleveland. Did you ever see the movie about like the way that the mafia bombed each other? No. Car bombs in Cleveland? No, but I believe it. It was going on all the time, right? Gas lines because of the fuel shortages, because of what was going on in between Israel and Palestine. And you got Watergate, right? And all this economic uncertainty. The weather underground. All of those things are going on. And I'm watching cartoons, right? Um, because my parents deliberately made this choice that that, because I know as an adult now with my own children, and now they're becoming adult children, that that you make a choice about what you're going to expose your children to and what you're not going to expose your children to. At least you should. Um, and I because I can remember a time when I screwed that up and I was, I was totally absorbed in uh something that was going on in the news at the time. And my kids came like home from school and I didn't turn it off. And it like wrecked them. Sure. To like, you know, uh, and it reminds me of like when you said, you know, you shouldn't lie to your kids. Well, it's a lie when you say that um I'll always protect you. Sure. Right. Um, I'll I won't let anything bad happen to you. That's a desire. Sure. Right. Um, okay. So well, my concern is that I don't see the, I don't see us protecting our children. I don't see us providing that kind of shelter for our children today. Because you've got middle school students who are discussing like geopolitical conflicts. And and I would really like to talk to um, because you know, like I remember studying like PAJ and early childhood development and all that kind of stuff and mental development. Um, but I'd really like to hear like the the critical thinking isn't even sure. Like, how do you and and we're just we're hitting them with this constant stream of global crisis. And and I think that a lot of people feel like that is progress. Like, well, because oh, look at look, they're they're becoming much more uh aware. Um, and isn't awareness better than ignorance? And right. And shouldn't we be trying to enray uh raise informed citizens and all that kind of stuff? Um but I think that um we're actually causing a bigger problem. And where it really began to pop into my head is the more I studied and sort of adapted the Dunning-Kruger effect for my presentation that I that I gave a few weeks then after that. Um and so what we're doing is we're just really giving people just enough information to put them on the pinnacle of certainty. Um or if you are familiar with the Dunning Kruger, it's what they call um Mount Stupid. Yeah. Right. Okay. And and but we're not teaching them the complexity of the world that we live in, of the history um that that we've inherited. Um I'm still learning the complexity and I'm 54 years old. Yeah. Right? Like I'm reading a book right now called Cast about how the United States is a caste system. And as I'm listening to it, and I'm and I'm like, oh my God, I never thought about it that way. And so it's just a another perspective. And so anyway, I think what's happening is our children uh are getting awareness without understanding. And I think that adults are engaged in the exact same thing. We have we have so much awareness without any understanding about it at all. You know, you've talked before. about how um ta-da boy that went right out of my head um uh the martyrmaid podcast yeah darry cooper uh talks about the um palestinian israel conflict and how the more he knows about it the just the more he's like it just becomes so much information yeah you know and and I think that happens like we used to think like we thought we knew a lot until we actually did yeah okay so I know I'm talking a lot but I want to wrap sort of this up because so then I think the engagement though is different right and it's it's um it um it's this idea of being able to get as much information as you can and then become engaged with the um the complexity it could become become engaged at sort of a greater depth of understanding than than what we see right now. Um and uh and again I was sort of thinking about Neil Postman and what really so I sat down that morning with my coffee and my laptop and I thought to myself if I I mean he's dead right um he died in 2003.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Um so what good did it do him right writing books.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Appreciate that um because we're still talking about it today and it he had that book I think that that book was is just it's it's such an important book. Yeah um amusing ourselves to death but I thought if I could ask Neil Postman to comment on what we see today, what would he say? And that's how I sort of got the whole thing going.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah I mean so anyway. And what do you think he would say um basically what you said in the post? Yeah I wrote it I I I wrote it for him that that um we have been steadily progressing he would say since the printing we can we can tell people what he would say because he's not here to defend himself that's right uh since the printing press we have been steadily progressing as a citizenry toward having wider and wider and wider awareness of events and shallower and shallower and shallower and shallower understanding of those events. We know everything that's happening and we know nothing about that. That's a can I post that on social media dude just take it as your own quote no I'm gonna quote and then I'm gonna put Lucas Dancy can be no it's I mean um I I I completely agree and I think that um I think personally that part of the reason this is because I don't think that humans uh act from an intellectual position. I think we act from instinct and emotion and drive and impulse and then we our intellectualism tells us a story. We tell ourselves a story immediately about why we're doing what we're doing. I think the majority of the reason why we do this to our kids is because it feels really good. It feels really good to sit with someone and have them agree with you. That feels good and I understand it it's a it's a deep deep evolutionary it's a cheap dopamine hit sure yes it's a dopamine hit I don't know that I would call it cheap. I would say that it's deep I think that it's like the thing that made us one of the things that made us survive is because it's related to social cohesion. It's the feeling that I am with you, you are with me, we are, we're together and you know to to hear your kid mirror back the things that you are saying, boy, that would that feels good.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Right the reason I say it's cheap is because it actually costs you nothing to get that dopamine hit. Right. The the enraged stuff it c it costs you nothing. Sure. Um it's virtue signaling often right sure yeah um I think costly I think it like a costly dopamine hit um and it may not even feel like it is is the engagement part.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah but I don't think you get dopamine from it that's why you can't that's the point. I mean like you get dopamine the dopamine comes from the the drive toward the things that evolution has uh selected for right and so I mean you're gonna get dopamine and serotonin and all of these things from the from the the path of least resistance right and um anyway I what about what about the what about the uh um the feeling that you get from accomplishment Okay what about that?

SPEAKER_04 27:16

What about that? What are you asking?

SPEAKER_02 27:19

Sorry I gotta grab a notepad here. Um all right we talk about the dopamine hit the do so I again I'm at the very beginning of the um what what's it called the map of um maps of meaning maps of meaning by um Jordan Peterson. Yeah and he talks about this idea that um okay so he talks about um uh cybernetics right and cybernetics is the idea that feedback loop uh loops underlie intelligent behavior sure okay all right so but one of the things that he's talking about is that emotion as a guide is uh a cybernetics of feeling okay um and that then but then he connects us to the idea of what is and what should be and that the the goal to have a goal is uh I'm gonna look at goal setting is distance energy and value all right data needs perception needs action needs goal needs values all right so what I'm saying is is if what if we reset what our what our goal is and then and then we have the opportunity to be to experience affirmation which is that cybernetics encouraging us to continue to move towards our goals sure right and so if our goal it would is to actually solve issues but not get not virtue signal is that still an experience of dopamine when you get the approval for moving closer to your goal?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Uh so okay so a couple things that I um try to keep it related to the original topic. Yeah well I think I am but maybe well so we get the as far as I understand you get the dopamine hit in anti it's an anticipation um of the possibility chemical or whatever that is. Yes. Okay it is not an accomplishment um it is in anticipation of the accomplishment as far as I understand and so yes you are that's what drives that's why you that's why humans exist the way we do we drive because we get this reward for driving. Okay here's my sincere belief nothing up to now is your sincere belief you cannot fix the problems you think you can fix they will not be fixed not by you not by me not by anyone what you can do is fix your own problems and I don't mean you Jeff I mean you general no I mean Lucas I can make my own bed I cannot create a world in which people make their bed however what I can do is a lot of things that make me feel like I'm moving toward creating a world in which people make their bed and that will give me the same feeling that will give me the same feeling the same dopamine hits that I would get by making by endeavoring to and continuing to make my own bed except it will not require me to work all it requires me to do is to signal or to talk about how I am getting the world to make their beds. Look you're talking about the stoic discipline of desire that's that's one way of talking about it sure I'm also talking about exactly what you were saying at the beginning with this post if we as parents were encouraging our kids to live honestly work hard in our schoolwork have a good work ethic clean your room be kind to your sibling say sorry when you were wrong you know these types of things that are in their control that's one thing the other thing is fix our immigration issues uh you know uh fix race relations fix um uh how your society views gay people and trans people fix right health care fix health care fix the economic system end poverty to right those things will not be fixed they will change and I'm not saying I really I can hear the voices saying oh so you just want just everything continues the way they are and you just that's just pessimistic and and yes okay fine I come from a pessimistic perspective when it comes to that type of thing my read of history is these things change they do not get better they just change however um I'm not saying don't get involved in those things what I am saying is I think that you were right on when you say we have we very and not ha I don't think actually this is different. I don't think this is different culturally than it was in the 70s or the 50s or the 20s or the mid 1800s. I think that it is much easier to to get the dopamine hits as an individual pretending that you're fixing these big problems because there is no standard for success that could ever be met, therefore you can always get the dopamine hits. You could continue forever right if if if I'm focusing on making my bed that's pretty easy to see if I did it or not. And and it's pretty hard to convince myself or anyone else that that's something I couldn't possibly have done right it's definitely something I could have done. And so you know I mean like take the immigration issue I could talk about the immigration issue for the next three hours we're gonna have to go back at least to the beginning of the 20th century and and we're gonna talk about Kennedy we're gonna talk about Reagan giving mass amnesty in in uh in exchange for closing the border and then not closing the border we're gonna have to talk about how as soon as as soon as we eliminate right around the same time actually before but definitely right after we eliminated slavery in this country we immediately started turning toward an underclass that we treated the same way. That's what the that's what we wanted we want the the large corporations want underclass cheap illegal labor that's what they want so it's not an issue that that there's like the pure side and then the and then the other side both sides want it to continue for different reasons right I I guess my my point is that's just one particular topic. I think all of these topics are ones that we can expend our energy on so that I don't have to be held accountable by myself to the things that I could actually fix in my life. You know? And so when I read your your post I thought exactly that's exactly right what I want for my kids is for them to be more removed from all these things right I want them to to be talking to me about their issues with their girlfriend this group dynamic with their friends and how are they going to deal with that? Their boss at their first job is you know kind of hard on them how do you deal with that they got a supervisor who doesn't seem to know what they're doing and so it's making things hard for the rest of the staff how do you deal with that right um you know the I don't want them to expend this very limited drive energy on things that I don't I don't think there's any possibility of making any kind of change in when they could be creating their own life individually that would be very strong that then maybe down the road they could be the type of pillar that could make some sort of change in a larger way.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Yeah that's I think that's that's the common ground. Yeah I'm trying to give I'm trying to I'm trying to step over as your side with that well be because I and I know you are because I think that deep down you you would even say that and that's not likely that's probably not going to happen anyway that that even because we would all as a human race have to be able to come to that place.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

And I'm more interested in the I'll tell you this and then I'll and then I'll I'll shut up because I know I've been talking for a while No I talked for a long time too my I love Peterson's concept of you should be you should be the you should endeavor to be the type of person who can be the strongest one in your family at your father's death. It's just an example. It doesn't mean father is more important than mother that's not what that's not the point. The point is you want to be the type of person who can hold it on your shoulders whatever it is and you got to start with your room or whatever, something small. And then at some point you can be the one that your family can rely on and and that's a metaphor. That's why he talks about it like that. It's a metaphor for being the one who maybe people outside of your family could lean on also in a time of trial. You know?

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Yeah I think um when I think about all of this, right, if if we we need to spend time, yes, first, and that's why kind of at the end I said there's a call to action for us as we all have to sort of try to become this person. But again with the um the uh oh shoot um the the discipline of it just went right out of my head I just said it a minute ago um desire the discipline of desire what that means is that you just accepting what you can control and what you can't control. Right. And so I can't I cannot I cannot control whether or not our country is ever going to be able to come up with uh solve what appears to be our healthcare issues. Right. Okay. Yeah I can't control that. Right. But what I can control is can I could I be the type of person that could engage in conversations about healthcare in a meaningful way instead of just adding to the outrage. Sure. Right and just the um just sort of the the the violence of words. Sure. You know can I be that type of person? And then and then if I can be that type of person and other people have a desire can I help them be that type of person like if you if you want to be able to engage and have a potential even even just a even if it is just a minuscule but have a potential to actually make a difference and you want to do that, I have some tools I can share with you. Right. And sort of and that because you know that's kind of what I've been working on. And then I'm the children.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

I'm reminded also of um something Elena said um several episodes back uh in regards to education where she said that if you feel that there is some sort of um right that's being violated or something that should be, that means you have a responsibility to do it. Not that does not mean that you have the um now have the right to talk about how other people should do it. Right. If you think that kids should be educated in a different way, you should be educating then. Yes or whatever. Right. Whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

So I have a responsibility. One, I the thing that I can control is how I react to the externals and the way that I allow myself to be transformed through the things that I see, the things that the things that bother me. And again that's why you have to spend some time processing why does that bother you rather than just being enraged about it. Then hopefully maybe I'll be the type of person that others see something in that they would want to emulate right and maybe it's start with my children. I now realize how fortunate I am that you guys are my parents.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Oh that's great to hear. Right? Uh just out of the blue dream just out of the blue. That's the dream as a middle aged parent.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

My first thought was I wonder what she just saw. Sure of course because she's working in the court systems and stuff like that. And so um anyway but but you want to be that for your kids and then maybe your friends and then and so you can create environments where we can be the best we can be maybe and then like you said I th I think that the only way that we can actually try to if we do want to be able to engage in in in addressing what we we might call like the big issues we first have to figure out how I can be the type of person that's well equipped to engage in the big issues.

SPEAKER_04 42:01

Sure does that make sense? So that's what the article was about.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Yeah. And in my opinion in my my my not so humble opinion yeah it the a first step is to become more engaged and less enraged. Mm-hmm But like we've pointed out enraged is the easy dopamine hit that you're gonna get yeah I I would just say that I don't I don't find it to be a virtue.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

I don't I don't I don't find it to be you know you you can imagine a scenario where you're you don't find what to be a virtue um uh enragement being enraged there's okay so being there's our common ground I don't find that being passionate about something I I think that um it it um it's a neutral um I I can imagine a conversation where um you know we're going around and we're talking about how we have to be like see the the humanity in everyone even when you know we disagree with them or they seem to be on the other side of an issue or whatever. And you can imagine in that conversation someone going, yeah, but you know what? I know the harm that they're doing and I'm mad. I get mad about that. You can you you've heard people say that you've heard you've had conversations but and it's presented as if me being mad is a virtue. I fine if you're mad I get mad I'm not trying to say that I'm I'm not some sort of like Buddhist monk here. I get I get very mad but I don't think it's a virtue. Right. I think it's just neutral.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

It just is I think it's I think it's a signal that is that is clearly it's clearly yeah yeah because what I I mean but all emotions are signals yeah that then you should process why do I feel that way? Right why so if you're angry yeah be angry but don't respond in anger think about why why am I angry about this? If it made you sad Spend some time thinking about what what about that made me sad.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Right. I'll tell you the vast majority of the time that I get angry about something. If if I reflect on it, I realize it's because it's some sort of reflection on myself. It's a mirror. I've done the same thing in some other way. Right. And it's and now I'm getting mad as I become aware of it. Well, as an unconscious way of saying you're like this, not me. When in reality I did the exact same thing at some point. That happens all the time. Sure. I've I have an example that I won't, I won't share that um uh that just happened this week. It's about you. No. Um it's it's really not. It's um anyway, uh, but I where I like vented to Krista about something. Um and I got to the end of it and I was, man, I was I was pissed. And I felt very righteous in it. And I got to the end, and as I'm petering out, it's so interesting. Cause if if I if you're an alien, you're just watching us as an organism, you would watch us the same way that we might watch a squirrel, right? And you would watch my energy start to peter out, and it was as if I had something built in me and I just had to get it out through talking. I could feel my body start to calm. And as I crossed over some threshold, all of a sudden, all of these examples of how I had acted exactly the same way as the person that I was so angry about, you know, two years prior, three years prior, my whatever, my whole life, whatever, they start flooding in and I go, oh yeah, but I did, yeah. And I that's uh that's that's what I did. I did the exact same thing. And it's like it's it's like I could watch myself as like a roller coaster and I'm coming in for the and the landing is oh, I did the exact same thing. Is that why I got so mad at this? Is it yeah, you know, uh it's a question. And uh, but I know that happens all the time with me.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Cathartic release. Right? Yeah, that's right. So again, I think anger, because we're talking about being enraged and engaged, the difference, right? I think that you to experience the anger is fine. And and uh maybe go out in your backyard and scream, right? And use all the all the words that you can think of, or have a great partner who's willing to listen to you and just listen, right? And uh, because one I think one of the most unhealthy things that we can do then is to try to rescue when someone's angry. Sure. Because they need to process that. But but do it, but then process it and then don't respond in your anger. So, or in any of the emotions. Again, very stoic. Is that the is that the discipline of action? Is that I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

That one's you at this point, you are way more of an expert in stoicism than I am.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

I've read a few books. Interesting. Okay. Uh I think we've already covered our common ground. Yeah. All right, excellent. Thanks. Yep, see ya.

SPEAKER_00 47:21

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