A Conversation with Steve Ghikadis

It’s hard to stay close to people when every space in your life demands a label and a side. Church, work, family, politics, online life, even your friend group can start to feel like separate worlds with separate rules. We sit down with Steve Ghikadis, a secular humanist and atheist married to a Christian, to talk about what it really takes to build common ground without watering down what you believe.

Steve shares the messy middle of an interfaith marriage: the quiet pressure of being seen as “one of us,” the stress of performing beliefs you don’t hold, and the way that tension can erupt into an angry phase that burns bridges fast. We unpack how he moved from conflict to repair through better tools for conversation, including street epistemology, plus his work with Recovering from Religion, where the goal isn’t deconversion but support and harm reduction.

Then we get practical. Steve lays out his “three mutuals” framework for bridging divides: mutual understanding, mutual acceptance, and mutual respect. We wrestle with authenticity, when honesty helps and when it harms, and how to keep loving relationships even when the other person isn’t interested in meeting you halfway. If you’re looking for real-world strategies for depolarization, empathy, and healthier conversations across belief, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share the episode with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find a better way to live on common ground.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they are living in a dog. Man, so what? We want a few games. And y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

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SPEAKER_03 1:15

So no. Yeah. Oh she's that's right. Okay, so pronounce your last name, Steve. Yeah, it's uh Jacadus.

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SPEAKER_05 1:24

Jacadus.

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SPEAKER_03 1:25

Okay. Alright. It's a lot easier than it looks. Yeah, no, now that you say it, it's real easy. Um glad you joined us. So um now you're calling in from Cala uh, let's see, from Canada. But you're really almost in Detroit, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:44

Pretty much um uh South Detroit, like the song uh journey, don't stop believing, born and raised in South Detroit. That's uh where I'm at.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Okay, excellent. Excellent. So uh we got connected through uh mutual friend Gary. Right? Yeah, okay. So um I had been on Gary's podcast called um Do you remember the it's Sand and shoot sorry Gary, I you know I really don't I don't know the name of it either. Yeah, I was I was trying to give him a free shout out and I can't remember. We'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, Gary's a great guy. There you go, Lucas. We'll put it in the show notes. So um so uh and then he let's see, we connected on Facebook through Gary, and then I saw that you you're doing some work with um trying to help people find common ground again.

SPEAKER_05 2:57

Okay, it's saying the background noise reduction has been disabled due to high system load, it's telling me it's yeah, that's bad. Okay. So go ahead. Okay. Yeah, sorry. So um yeah, so I wrote a book about um getting along with people regardless of what your backgrounds and beliefs are, and that's been kind of my my life's work since uh since overcoming issues in my interfaith uh relationship. Uh it's been basically my my uh my goal is to try and get people to get rid of the us versus them narrative and and find shared values. So uh the book is called Humanism from the Heart, Building Bridges Beyond Belief.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

So when I When did it come out? Um sorry, Lucas.

SPEAKER_02 3:40

No, I'm gonna talk now. No, go ahead. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

No, no, no. I just want to know when it came out, and then I'm gonna let you talk.

SPEAKER_05 3:46

Yeah. It came out on uh March 23rd last year, so it's coming up on one year right now. So why did you write that book? Yeah, there's a lot of different um things that went into it. Uh the biggest thing was my interfaith uh marriage, and I went through a very bad angry atheist phase when I kind of came out to everybody that I was a non-believer, and I felt like I was being judged for the way that I didn't believe, even though I felt like more mad at myself than anyone else for duping people into thinking that. Uh and then when I reached out to people like Anthony Magnabosco, who had been do uh practicing street epistemology, and uh Dale McGowan, who had written books on interfaith families and and things like that, uh they both helped me get to the point where I could uh develop that mutual understanding between people of different backgrounds and beliefs.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

So when you say are you saying interfaith marriage? Is that what you're saying? In interfaith, yeah. Okay. That's right. So tell me about that. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_05 4:48

So interfaith uh is just kind of a term that we use because we don't really have a better one. I guess you could say mixed worldview uh relationship, but uh, you know, people that uh, you know, there's believers and there's people who are non-believers, and there's people who are believers in different uh deities uh and religious systems. So it's just uh if you're in a relationship with somebody and both of your worldviews are different, you can call it inner faith.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Right. Okay. So you're saying that you're married to somebody who is a believer? Yeah, that's correct. I'm married to a Christian. Okay. And so were you guys um I don't want this to sound like an interrogation here, so I apologize if that's how it is. So it's all good, but uh that's all good. So we're so well, I guess probably a good place to to start uh or that I would be interested in is um what you know if you if you could give kind of a 10,000 foot view of what your um process or your progression or journey has been. And then so uh and I'm interested. So we did you get did you get married when you both were believers and then you you kind of um changed at that point, or were you not a believer when you guys got married?

SPEAKER_05 5:59

Yeah, it's a really complicated story, and I can start at the beginning. Of course. So I was uh yeah, I was raised as a free thinker. Um so my mom did all the best practices for raising free thinkers without knowing it because she didn't read the book because the book wasn't written. Um so uh Dale McGowan, who wrote the book uh Parenting Beyond Belief, he talks about the nine best practices for raising free thinkers, and there's really good uh tips in there, but basically she did all those things without knowing it. So I was able to experience um critical thinking, just be able to experience the world uh for what it is. And I got to go and uh go see friends' churches and mosques and temples and things, and I grew up with different people and different backgrounds and just kind of was able to integrate into all those different systems and you know felt really uh connected to everybody. So I would consider myself looking back to be an apatheist. I didn't really believe in any higher powers, but I didn't really care one way or the other. And then when I joined the Masonic Lodge um as a promise to my late grandfather, uh it was a very religious organization, whereas they, you know, they they teach a lot of the biblical stories as how you move through the the ranks there.

SPEAKER_06 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

And, you know, they say you have to believe in a higher power to be part of it. So I'm like, I guess I can say I believe in a higher power. Sure. Like, you know, I just I I didn't know. Um and when they kneel you down at the altar, they say, Who do you put your faith in? And they whisper in your ear, In God. So I kind of said, In God with a question mark, you know, and I went through a whole journey of trying to experience and ex and um and try and uh find my place within the the world, whether or not I believed it. So at the same time I was attending the United Church of Canada, which is uh because of the the Masonic Lodge, they most of the members there were members of this church, so I started going along with them. And at the same time I met who was going to be my wife at a at a birthday party. She was coming down the stairs. I'm like, oh, she's really good looking. And I saw some ice cream cake, so I grabbed some ice cream cake and I smushed it on the side of her face, and I didn't say a word to her, and I started eating it off her face, and I'm really sorry about that. And then, you know, I was embarrassed, so I went upstairs. She followed me upstairs, and she, you know, kind of confronted me, and we were just like laughing and joking, and then talked about all the things that we wanted to accomplish in the world. And um, you know, we found out we had so many things in common, and she was going to this united church that I was going to the Masonic Lodge with. So it kind of was, I was like, maybe there's something to this. So, you know, I was attending church with her, and uh I got to the point where I said, you know what, maybe I should be confirmed in the faith. So I went and talked to the minister, and the minister said, Well, you it's one thing to say that you believe, but you really need to believe if you want to be confirmed. So, you know, and I kind of expressed my doubts to him. And I just said, you know what, there's never really been anything that's given me sufficient evidence of uh a higher power or uh a God. So I just I can't say that I do believe. And, you know, he just kind of didn't let me be confirmed. Uh and then so at our wedding, which was kind of inherently religious because, you know, I'm attending church with her. Um, you know, we're the families were attending church together and everything. And her parents got up and did a speech at our uh reception, and they said, We're so happy she met a man who believes the exact same thing she does. And it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks because I'm like, ah shoot, I don't, you know, like so I just I didn't know what to what to do or what to say. Um and I kind of felt like a wolf in sheep's clothing because I'm like, these people think that I'm something I'm not. And I was sitting in the pews beside them every week and going through all the motions, but not really being in it.

SPEAKER_06 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:30

Um, and then, you know, I I got a call from the minister saying they wanted me to come and write uh light the Christ candle and pass the plate around. And I just said, you know what, like I just I just can't. I just can't because I don't believe it. And I need to kind of tell everybody that I don't believe it. And when I did that and I said, I don't think I can go to church anymore. It was very it was like a a big dampener on my relationship. And um, and some of the things that had happened, including like the being asked to do the plates, like to pass the plate around everything, kind of triggered me to be more of like kind of an angry person. So I started attacking her beliefs and the beliefs of my friends and family. And I went down a really negative path. And um I got to one point where, you know, things weren't really working out that well for me and for everybody else. And I said, there's gotta be a better way. And that's when I reached out to Anthony and to Dale and said, you know, like, please help. I'm trying to find ways to find common ground, be have cordial conversations. And, you know, I worked with them for quite a long time on that, uh, joined some Facebook groups, had some better conversations, practiced street epistemology, did all that stuff. And I was able to rebuild my marriage, be able to uh, you know, rebuild the bridges that I had burned uh with other people as well. And then I thought, you know what, now that I've got to the point where I am confident in the way that I've interacted with people, I'm gonna start writing this down on a blog so that other people can be uh can benefit from it.

SPEAKER_06 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

And I was I'm uh volunteer for recovering from religion as well. Um so at NanoCon, that's where I met Gary Parker. Um I was tabling for Recovering from Religion, and I actually did a workshop, uh, a couple workshops, one with them and then one for my book. But um yeah, so when I was working with Recovering from Religion, um I was uh also you know practicing these conversations and and being able to reach across a divide and and be a shoulder to cry on or something for somebody who may be experiencing some doubt, maybe experiencing some anger. And I was kind of able to help people uh navigate that as well. Recovering from Religion is a really good organization because we're not necessarily there to deconvert anyone. We're there to meet them where they're at. So basically they're um they're coming to us in whatever state they're in and you know, say they're they're gay and they say, you know, my church is being really negative towards you know, gay people and saying I'm sinful. We'll say, you know, what will the Unitarian Universalists down the road there? They don't actually judge that. So, you know, if you wanted to attend them, you know, go ahead and do that. So we do point people in the in those directions as well. And we we offer you know resources for people uh in any situation. Uh so um, but yeah, basically that's uh where uh I was writing a blog for recovering from religion, but doing it in a way where I was mentioning stories that had happened in my past and how I was able to overcome these issues and how I was able to have these cordial conversations and people who were saying, like, you know what, this would be really cool as a book. So I'm like, Yeah, that's a really good idea. So I compiled the stories. I wrote a most message on Facebook saying I'm writing a book if anyone has some cool memories from the past. And then I had someone reach out to me that said, I want to edit your book for free. So I'm like, okay, that's cool. And it was a friend of mine who I didn't know she was an author, but she actually is a pretty famous author. And so she said, You'll I'll do it for free. She took it and she goes, This is no good. And I'm like, Oh, really? Like it really hit me in the heart that I'm like, what do you mean it's no good, right? And she said, Well, you know, you have some really good ideas, and so there's a lot of heart in here, but there's just nothing, no unifying message that's tying everything together. So I was like, all right, never mind, I'm not gonna write the book, I'll just leave them up there as a blog. And then a few months later, I was doing a podcast for Humanist Canada, which is basically the humanist organization that kind of oversees everything in Canada here. Um, I'm also licensed through them to, as an officiant, to be do to do weddings and funerals and that type of thing. Um, but I was doing a podcast for them and they said, we're looking for this segment that is kind of your style of having conversations. And I said, Okay, uh, let's call it something like uh, you know, it's from the heart. So maybe humanism from the heart. And I'm like, never mind, don't use that. I'm gonna use that for my book, right? Because when I got the name for the book, then I'm like, okay, now all these ideas are starting to pour together and uh pull together, and I was able to pour my heart out on paper. And um I said, What is it I'm trying to accomplish with this book? Well, I'm also trying to build bridges. So let's put the subtitle Building Bridges Beyond Belief. And then everything's just started flowing out, and I started pulling down all the stories off a medium that I'd already posted on there because things had changed so much, and then that's basically how the book was formed, and that's where it came from. So sorry about the long-winded response. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

That's the story of it. That's what I was that's what I was interested in. So it sounds like your um it sounds like your childhood, and correct me if I'm wrong, was not really a uh a real religious childhood. Is that fair to say?

SPEAKER_05 14:08

Yeah, I I was baptized Anglican as uh being in Canada here, we kind of still have the Anglican Church as one of the prominent religious groups here. But uh yeah, it was um I was I was more of an explorer. I was taking kind of things from different belief systems that I thought were useful and meaningful, and uh not realizing that the idea of humanism, uh pulling all of these things together, the principles that really matter for, you know, dignity, respect, compassion, empathy, um, you know, scientific investigation, all of these different things are kind of the principles of humanism, but I didn't really know it at the time because I didn't know the label.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

Okay. So it's not so it's not really a situation where you know you had a um uh like a uh time period in your life where you're what might be called a true believer and then walked away from that. It was more like you were kind of developed in this in this humanist uh tradition, but then later in life as an adult felt kind of compelled through um joining the Masonic Lodge and and that kind of thing to kind of uh accept the the the uniform, if you will, of of the of the dominant religion. Is that is that fair to say is kind of the the progress.

SPEAKER_05 15:28

Yeah, I guess, yeah, that's that that would be that would be a way to word it for sure. I mean, I always had um different types of thinking. I I kind of had conspiratorial thinking at certain points in my life. Like I believed that the Animanaki were real. I thought that the ancient alien theory was correct, right? Because it was on the history channel. Sure. You know, so like you see things and you say, okay, well, this must be a part of our history, or you know, that makes more sense to me than you know, a supernatural god and blah, blah, blah, right? But then not knowing that it actually um asks more questions than it answers, right? So just a lot of things throughout my life that I kind of questioned. I even went out in the woods at one point and said, Zeus, if you're real, hit me with lightning. Right. Like I just was very curious about the world and just wanted to know, you know, what is out there, if anything. And to me, I just haven't found sufficient evidence to warrant belief in anything supernatural.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Yeah. Okay. And the the the kind of confrontation that you were talking about in uh and um with the church and and uh with your spouse and and all of that, was that early on in the marriage, or was that like had had you guys been married for a while, or how did that uh yeah, it was pretty early on in the marriage because it was basically just after we had gotten married that things started really collapsing on me.

SPEAKER_05 16:42

Yeah. And it was more like self- self-inflicted. So I always say I was more mad at myself than anyone else because I was the one duping people, right? Like I was the one sitting in the pews beside them pretending to be something I wasn't.

SPEAKER_06 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:54

And it happens more often than you think, right? Like I had a lot of people calling at recovering from religion, saying, I'm sitting in the pews, but I'm really not I'm not there. I'm not not a believer like everybody else around me. And everyone feels like they're alone in that. And one of the messages we like to say is you're not alone, right? So there are people out there that are going through those same things. And sometimes they lash out because it's self-inflicted. It's something that they've the harm that they've caused themselves by not being true to themselves and not ex expressing who they actually are.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah, it's really interesting. It strikes me, um, sorry, Jeff, I know I'm kind of dominating now, but um, it it just strikes me that your experience of, you know, they they want you to pass the plate around and and do the um the candle and and all of that, and you and you feel like um oh man, they they think I believe something that I don't believe. Um I think that that is probably something that almost everyone who sits in a pew could say, you know, that that there's some aspect that uh of of the kind of the the group idea in any given congregation that I think every single individual in that congregation would go, oh, they think I believe that. I don't really believe that, you know, like even if they even if they would say that they accept 99% of it, well, there's that 1%. I don't maybe they think I I believe in that part and I don't, you know, and you kind of keep it to yourself, and I think that that's a common experience of um of feeling like you're not being, you know, in inverted comma uh quotations uh authentic, you know. Um so that's that's that's an interesting uh that's an interesting progression that you're you're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

This was also 11 years ago or almost 12 years ago now. So since then, I mean I go to church once in a while with her and the kids. Um, you know, we do church events and things like that. I go to spaghetti dinners. Um, you know, I I don't have any problem with the church people. Yeah. Um, you know, we've we've kind of come to the understanding that I'm a different uh I have a different worldview than they do, and all of them accept me for that. A lot of them have actually read my book, so it's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

I find it um I was gonna say I find it interesting to hear the this like the reason for the anger, because in my what I have uh I don't know if I was assumed or witnessed or experienced is the right way of putting it, but it seems to me, at least from what I've perceived, is a lot of times we all go through sort of when whenever our belief system changes, whenever our worldview changes, it appears like we become the fundamentalist version of that, right? And so uh and it appears to me that a lot of times when someone is coming out of a a very religious background, which is more of the Tennessee southern states of Ohio uh of uh the United States, there's an anger, uh, but but they're coming out of a very traditional sort of religious background. Um and uh and I've always assumed that the anger is being directed towards the traditional religious tradition that they're coming out of. But it's interesting to hear that the anger is a is a result of being being looked inward, that I'm actually angry with myself. Uh was it like I I'd like to hear more about that because I've always assumed the anger was I can't believe I've been duped for so long, and now I realize that that was all garbage.

SPEAKER_05 20:35

I think that it it's it's uh there's multiple ways uh to experience anger. And I think that mine is a little bit unique because I was raised as a free thinker, so I didn't have the belief going into the situation. Whereas a lot of people might believe it like uh Lucas said, being true believers and then losing the faith. I was never like that. I never had the the true belief. Um so I think that it it's a little bit of a different scenario for me, but yeah, I'm open to discussing anything about the anger side, the angry uh atheist period of my life.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Yeah, I'd like to I'd just like to I just I all I say is I found it fascinating when you you had the self-realization that my anger So how did it manifest?

SPEAKER_05 21:18

Yeah, so I started uh ridiculing people's beliefs. Um I wouldn't go on like forums online and blast people. Um I would talk negatively about my spouse and her beliefs and her family and um just really did some damage, really burned some bridges, and um it wasn't pretty.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah. I saw Lucas nod because I think I remember from Lucas's own story going on some forums online forums as well. Is that true?

SPEAKER_02 21:44

I've done so much. It the the the um the hilarious thing when I think about myself as a uh like as a seventeen year old, eighteen year old, and then and then on through is that like I d I did the same thing over and over again. Where like when I was 17, 17, 18, I was getting ready to go to college. I remember this is the the heyday of um uh Yahoo chat rooms. And um uh and I was I I was a true believer at that point. And I would go into LDS Mormon chatrooms to to um debate people um about how Mormonism wasn't real Christianity, right? And so and I had I did that with the same type of vehemence as I would when I kind of decided that um uh as an adult that I might as that I might as well call myself an atheist. Um, you know, right. And uh yeah, that I I I can definitely relate to that, that I have um uh I've got that strain of of wanting to um you know to just argue with everyone. That's a part of it, what what I'm what I'm interested in too is um, you know, this feeling that I I've gotta make sure that I'm authentic. You mentioned that you you attend church now from time to time, um, and go to spaghetti dinners and stuff and and are around them. It is there do you still have a feeling that you've got to make sure people know what your real belief system is? Or does it does it bother you less now if you imagine that they think you believe something you don't believe? Does that make sense? Like is there is there still that like feeling of being real or whatever? Right.

SPEAKER_05 23:45

Um that's a really good question. And it's something that I think changes based on the day. So there's days where I feel like, you know what, I really want people to know that I'm not a believer. And then there's other days where I'm like, if someone says, God bless you, I'll say, Oh, thank you, you too. Yeah. You know, like it really doesn't bother me in certain circumstances, circ uh my words, uh certain circumstances, I, you know, I don't uh I don't um uh bat an eye, but then there's other times where I'm like, you know, in this certain circumstance, I definitely want people to know that I'm a non-believer. Um and you know, it does happen on occasion where I'll get people from the church who will see out in public and they'll say, you know, they'll send me messages and things or they'll say something out loud of like, you know, I respect your beliefs, but I do think that uh, you know, the reason why you're doing the good things that you're doing is because of, you know, the hands and feet of Jesus and whatever. And I go, okay, yeah, you know, if if uh if um you know if I'm living up to somebody that uh that you admire like that, then I take pride in that. So, you know, that's how I answer those type of questions.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Yeah. Yeah, that it's different in the different circumstances. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

You mentioned earlier about definitely about um and Lucas, you referenced it too, this idea that everybody probably has different beliefs that when you're gathering together on a Sunday morning or Saturday night or whatever it is, you gather for worship in in Christian communities, or really any communities. Uh I can only speak for the Christian community though. Even pastors, like I I know pastors that are the only reason they continue to pastor uh is because they've got so much time invested in it, and they can't imagine trying to start a new career, and they don't actually believe the things that they're that they've been taught it means to believe in order to be a Christian. I've kind of reached a point myself uh over the last, I don't know, 20 years, where I don't really care what people think I believe. Um I'm I'm not so worried about trying to correct people's assumptions about what I believe. And I really don't care what other people believe either. But what I do care about is how we behave and what we do. Right. And so for me, um, and you mentioned like if someone um says, well, that the reason that you care, Steve, about about helping people find common ground or getting along is because you're actually doing the hands and feet of Jesus work, right? Um To me, when I first started out, it was about my faith. Uh I really it was my faith that that caused me to want to do this work. But lately, over the last few years especially, it's more of just um a just a genuine desire to see people not be jerks and actually just how can we actually get along? How can we get how can we get uh above our beliefs and and the yeah and the realization that whatever your worldview is, right? Three people here, three different worldviews, uh, even though you both um are not persons of faith in the in the way that I'm a person of faith, uh it's still different worldviews. Uh how can we get to the point where we can get beyond our own worldview, understand that our worldview is simply our worldview, that we don't have a claim on what is ultimate truth, live with it, but live well together with it.

SPEAKER_05 27:05

Yeah. And that's the million dollar question, and that's what I've been trying to answer. And I think that, you know, I I do a it's funny that you say don't be a jerk because uh the last line of my book is actually don't be a dick. Yeah. Because I think that's the most important thing. Yeah. Um, and I start my presentations off like that too. I usually will start and I'll say, you know, I'm gonna start with a quote and it just says don't be a dick. And I say, that's my presentation. Thank you everyone for showing up, you know, and jokingly conclude. Um, but no, like one of the things I do talk about that I kind of came up with is the three mutuals, and one of them is mutual understanding. So if you can develop a mutual understanding of why the person believes what they believe. So, and and I and then again at the keyword being mutual. So if you can develop an understanding of what it is that they believe and they can understand what you believe, that's the very first step. So, you know, you can say, like, I know that you don't believe in a God because you don't find sufficient evidence, and I know that you believe in a God because you um are hopeful for an afterlife, right? Like just say that those are two examples. So that's a mutual understanding. You understand each other in that sense. Now the next step would actually be the acceptance. So just because you believe you know that somebody believes a certain thing for a certain reason, it doesn't mean that you accept that, right? So some people will be like, they're done at that point. No, I I can't accept that you believe this because you want to see your your parents after in an afterlife or whatever, right? Um, that's gonna be the hindrance of the next step. So if the next step is mutual acceptance, you can accept why, okay. I understand fully why you would want to see your parents in the afterlife. So I totally get why you would want to believe. Uh and the same thing for somebody on my in my circumstance, where it's like I don't believe, someone can say, you know, I fully accept that you don't see evidence for it because you know what, I can't provide evidence for that. It's just something that you have to take on faith, right? So those that would be a mutual acceptance stance. Then you get to the mutual respect, and that's the hardest one to build that I find, because to in order to respect somebody, you have to go beyond what the beliefs are and actually respect the person, right? So you can say, you know, I don't really believe what you believe, but I can respect you as a person, as a human. And I think that's where the humanism part comes in. Uh, and and you know, you can say, I ex I respect you for who you are, and regardless of what your beliefs are. And I think that that's what you're saying, Jeff, is that we get to the point where that worldview doesn't really matter. What matters is that what we care, what is it that we put our care into for the person. And I think that this is a controversial statement that I've made a lot, and a lot of atheists get mad at me for saying this, and a lot of them will push back on me a lot. And what I say is that humanism is a universal term, and I don't think that you have to be an atheist to use the word humanism. Secular humanism, sure, because it says secularism means non-religious, right? But with like the word humanism, it actually came from Christianity. It was actually progressive Christians that came up with the term humanism. Um, and so when someone says I'm a humanist, I don't necessarily go, oh, okay, you're an atheist then. You know, I just take it at the face value for what they're saying. My wife considers herself to be a Christian humanist because she puts the principles of humanism above her religious dogma. So, you know, she is operating on empathy, she's operating on compassion, on understanding, on scientific investigation. She's doing all the things that you would consider to be humanistic, but she happens to believe that the universe was created. And, you know, what I always say is that's the smallest thing, because really nobody knows for sure where the universe came from, if it had a beginning at all, right? We don't know. Um, but we we are if we can if we can understand that the rest of all the other things we agree on, say 99% or even 87% of what's out there, especially at the ground level and the shared values, then why argue about where the universe came from?

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Yeah, I think that's good. Um I was gonna say I think I'm a Christian humanist.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

There you go. Does that sound right?

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

I think that's I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Uh what are we gonna say, Lucas?

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Yeah, it strikes me that um, you know, the the process or the the attempt to um find common ground when we're talking about this, when we're talking about how do you reach across these these uh belief divides and all that kind of stuff. A lot of times um I think what we're imagining is this um, you know, even if it's a difficult one, uh, you know, a cordial conversation, a conversation between two people like you were talking about, who are um mutually trying to reach some sort of um uh agreement or um or not agreement necessarily, but not not agreement at all, but like some sort of connection. Some understanding? Yeah, some sort of understanding.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

So what I have been thinking about a lot, um, and and I would like to get your thoughts on this is um it seems like the the the real work for me as an individual is to to figure out some way to have a connection with that person uh who is not interested in having that mutual understanding, right? Who I'll just give you an example and I I've used this example before. My um my grandmother believes in a literal heaven and hell. Well, if you believe in that, then that is like uh that's like a cliff. That's like a cliff that your your grandchild can fall off of and die, right? So it is and she believes in it in a way that I quote unquote believe in gravity. I know it's there. She knows it's there, right? And so it is completely uh it would be completely neglectful for her to not think about her grandson falling off the the cliff, right? When I'm trying to have a relationship with her, I have to know that that she has this again in inverted commas knowledge of the world. Um and so I can't it at some point like I'm not going to be able to have a connection with her if I'm continuing to try to have this like authentic conversation about who I am and who she is. You know what I mean? And so yeah, so I find myself wondering well, I want to continue having relationships with people who don't want to bridge the divide of belief. I still want to have relationships with them. So how do I do that, right? And so that's the thing that I've been thinking about. I I'd like to get your thoughts on that part.

SPEAKER_05 33:39

Yeah, for sure. And that's a nuanced um thing. There's there's there's so much nuance to all of this, right? Like it depends on what you mean by authentic and what it is that you want to come across as being authentic as, because love is the basis, right? So if you love your grandmother and you want to be part of her life, then you don't need to create any kind of conflict. There has to, there doesn't have to be anything. You could pretend to be whoever you want to be with your grandmother if you're using love as the basis, right? Love and respect and and everything. And I would say that's even more genuine is to be respectful and not try and you know deconvert her or just, you know, even just give her the knowledge that you are a non-believer and give her that that fear and that stress that she doesn't need, right? So um I think the one thing about humanism is that um morality, um, if we want to talk about it as being um you know inherited traits over time uh that we we've used to survive and and and build up a rapport and a social contract with other people, one of the biggest things is to not cause harm, right? Like the Hippocratic Oath, it's like you know, you're you're trying to minimize the amount of harm. So when you're in every situation, if you're trying to do your best to minimize harm, I think that you're doing the right thing. If you think about it from humanistic morality. I think that, you know, there are some things like we we've heard this all in like cull-in shows and stuff, but someone says, you know, you give your child a shot, which causes harm, but it's gonna prevent them from getting something like measles in the future, which is gonna cause them even more harm, right? So if you're causing the least amount of harm by lying to somebody in quotation marks, um, you know, telling little white lies or just not sharing information that you think is gonna be harmful, you can be doing the most moral thing in that certain circumstance. Um, if you did want to approach the subject, like if she does already know that you're a non-believer, this is something that I did talk to my wife about, and I said, would an all-loving God you know me. I'm like, would an all-loving God send me to hell, me, the person in front of you right now, for the person that I am, just because I don't believe in him. Right? And that's a really big thing for people to kind of try and get their head around. Like, why would an all-loving God send somebody who is a good person who does charity work, who does like bridge building work, right? Why would why would this person who probably, if there is a God, is using that person to accomplish their goals, right? Why, why would an all-loving God send that person to somewhere like hell or even create hell in the first place, right? But that's those are the type of things that you you you can go down if you really want to. But the one thing I always keep in my mind is two things in my mind. One thing is, what is my goal for this conversation? So if my goal for this conversation is to just have a loving relationship and and have a really nice conversation with this person, that's gonna be my goal, and that's what I'm gonna do. If, and then I also try and think in my mind all the time, what can I learn from this? So anytime I go into a circus certain circumstance, like even right now, I'm thinking, what can I learn from this? Right? So I'm picking up information from uh you, Lucas, and from you, Jeff, and I'm just trying to you know add this to my life. What what uh positives and negatives am I getting from this situation that I can now carry on into the next situation and and how is that gonna help me um in my future conversations, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Yeah I I tried to after you said it put a note on my phone. See if I got this right. Was it uh mutual understanding, then acceptance and then respect? Yeah. Okay, all right. I wanted to make sure I got that. So I do have a uh one more question, and I think it's probably I'd like to hear because I think all three of us would have a different answer. So, well, first of all, the first question is it seems to me like we all care about helping people or working towards finding common ground. Is that fair? Yep.

SPEAKER_04 37:31

Okay, I don't know. You don't know. We'll see.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Yeah, he you think he's joking, but I wonder sometimes. Anyway, um okay, but the question is why? Because I think it'd be interesting. I think that we may all be doing it for different reasons. Not everybody I this is something I'm actually learning. Not everybody cares about helping people find common ground for the same reason I do. I had to learn that. Right. And then I think the most important question is does it matter?

SPEAKER_04 38:00

Does it does the common ground matter or does the work matter? No, does the reason matter? Do you think it matters, Jeff?

SPEAKER_03 38:13

That's a really good question. Um I think it helps me to gain appreciation for the greater importance of the work.

SPEAKER_05 38:24

Does that make sense? Yeah. There's a lot of people that have yeah, definitely. And there's a lot of people that have different goals. There is a group called the Ahmadiyya Muslims. Not sure if you know uh that sect of Islam, but basically they are they were founded in India, I think it was like 1800s or something, and they have a new prophet that came after Muhammad. And their whole um approach and their motto is love for all, hatred for none. So they have these interfaith symposiums. And I've actually participated in a couple of the interfaith symposiums as a secular humanist and as an atheist speaker. And their ultimate goal, they think that their prophet is coming back and that everyone will be kneeling before the prophet, but and they want to unite everybody before this prophet comes. And I don't believe that. And I don't think that's a really good reason to get everyone to work together, but I also don't really care because we are working together and they're bringing all these people together, and it's really helping the world because we're able to be on a stage together, shake hands, hug, you know, uh share sweet messages back and forth between the different groups. And I think that, you know, the ultimate goal that somebody has for doing the thing matters really little in the grand scheme if the goal is mutual um respect and you know uh the world being a better place because we're finding shared values.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah. I think that's uh I think that's fair. Um I think if you know if you're if you're looking for um particular results, like um like uh people working better together, people being at more apiece or whatever, then it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter the uh the reason in general. Um I can see an argument for someone um saying that the the reasons would matter because you could imagine um uh the process being derailed if the um if the intent is isn't um you know isn't isn't a good intent. But um but I I I think that I probably fall on your side of the ledger as far as uh that question goes. My um my reason is that um uh I want peace. I I want a place of peace for my kids. That's really why I care about the about um finding common ground um and and uh bridging divides. Um you know I'm not um I'm definitely not evangelistic about um being a non-believer. In fact, I kinda I I kind of like the believers more a lot of the time, you know. So um uh so I I I really don't have and like and like I said, um I have a strong connection myself personally. I I live in kind of uh several different worlds, and so um I have a lot of friends who um we see a lot of the world the same way, but they're um but they're pretty traditionalist uh uh religious people, right? Um Christians. Right. And um and I just don't I don't talk about that part. Well what I do is um talk about things in ways that that I feel like I can talk about them without explicitly lying, right? But there's like you like you were saying, Steve, there's no reason to um to nitpick or to get into things that um that are um I think kind of irrelevant um to our relationship, you know, and so um yeah, but but to answer your question, Jeff, that's the reason for me. That's the reason. Um I uh uh I am concerned about having um a place uh I I want a walled compound of sanctuary for uh for my kids. And so that is uh that's that's why for me.

SPEAKER_05 42:29

Yeah. And and I'm in the same boat. I mean, like I find that my meaning and purpose is my family. So if I can provide the my family with a better world, that's the ultimate goal. Um and you know, just being in an interfaith relationship or a mixed worldview relationship gives me a better, bigger perspective of the other people that are out there and what the goals are that people want to accomplish. And you know, as long as it's not harming themselves or harming others, then I'm okay with whatever reason they have, as long as we're all working for the same goal.

SPEAKER_02 43:01

Have you felt influence from uh your uh from your wife um over the course of your um relationship in terms of this? Um like it sounds like she has been influenced by you in some ways. Um uh have have you seen that reciprocally? I don't know if that's a word.

SPEAKER_05 43:21

Yeah, I think that is a word. Um yes, I would say um I can't like nothing really comes to mind right now, but I do know that just living with her and and having her express to me times where it's like, you know, she just wishes she could be a better Christian. And I'm like, well, what do you mean by that? And she says, like, you know, I want to be able to go to church more. I want to be able to go to Bible study, or I want to be able to go, you know, take the kids to church and providing that without any kind of barrier, just saying, like, yeah, absolutely, like go and do that. You know, it's given me so much of an open mind to like, you know, allow um my kids to be exposed to that and just to to learned that there's other beliefs in the world, you know, that there's other people that think different things and there's different ways to approach different things. And I think that like my kids having the exposure to, you know, humanism, uh, Christianity, it's like they're they're able to kind of pick from the cafeteria of what it is that they think is is important in this world and and the way that they want to build their moral system. My kids have you know grown leaves and bounds over what I did when I was a kid and and um you know there's there's there's some stories in the book about um about uh times where they acted way beyond what morality I thought that uh they would at this age. Um at one point they they approached a blind man at a at a street fair and they said we want to ask him a question. They saw him banging a stick on the ro on the road and they're like what's that? I'm like well he's blind and he's using that stick to get around and my my one son's like oh like echo location. I think he was like three at the time or something or four. And I'm like kinda I guess I don't know I don't know how it works or whatever but like you know he's feeling the vibrations or something. They're like we want to ask him a question. So I'm like okay we go up and I tap him on the shoulder and I said excuse me sir my kids want to ask you a question and he gets down to my son's level and he goes yeah absolutely like ask away and then my one son the four year old grab grabs his hands together like this and he goes what's your favorite bird and I'm like what what are you doing? Like why would you ask a blind man what his favorite bird is right like thinking like I don't know if he's gonna take offense to it but like how would he know the difference in birds if he's never been able to see and he said he he started crying. He was like his eyes he was like tears come down his eyes he said no one's ever asked me that question before and he pulled up his sleeve and he had this giant uh tattoo of a phoenix and he said the phoenix is my favorite bird because like me it's risen from the ashes and that was a magical moment between my kids who thought outside the box were thinking we just want to go and talk to this person and treat him like a human being and we want to ask him you know a a question that's important to me and important to him. And I look up and his wife is just bawling like she's just bawling her eyes out. And uh I start crying and the kids are just like you know what what's going on? Like why is everyone crying and I'm like no no yeah you you guys did a great thing. This is amazing. And as they were walking off I heard them say I heard him say like you know this made my day. So it's just it's so neat to hear what our kids can accomplish when we raise them in a world where it's it's good to have empathy. You know, we just keep hearing how negative empathy is these days and it's crazy to me. You know it's just like having building that empathy and showing that you know that person over there is hurting what can we do to help them right like you know how would you feel in that circum certain circumstance and I think that that's just an important thing that we can teach our kids and regardless of where it comes from as long as not it's not causing harm or you know anything like that I think it's uh it's warranted.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

I think that's the story to end on. I think that's a fantastic story. So real quick um name of the book again. Uh it's Humanism from the heart building bridges beyond belief.

SPEAKER_05 46:56

Where can I get it?

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Uh Amazon uh pretty much anywhere where you can get books all right one more question um just to personal my uh my son's gonna be going to Bowling Green State University up in uh bowling green ohio just outside of Toledo how far is that from you from me um it's probably about three hours. Oh okay all right so it's still quite a distance from you. I'm just wondering it is yeah like I've I've gone to Cleveland a few times uh to do presentations and stuff with the Cleveland Humanist Alliance and I've passed I've passed Bowling Green on my way through so okay yeah it might even be it might even be less it might be two and a half hours I'm not sure I yeah I didn't know because I'm gonna be up there in June for his uh his orientation and I thought I'm gonna be up there for a couple days I thought maybe I could try to buy you dinner but that's a bit that'd be a bit oh that'd be really cool. Maybe we can meet in Michigan or something. Yeah maybe up maybe up in Detroit so yeah all right well thanks for joining us we'd greatly appreciate it.

SPEAKER_05 47:56

Yeah thanks so much great to meet you and uh feel free you know yeah nice to meet you guys too if you ever want to do this again I'd love to do this again. Sounds great sounds great appreciate it. Awesome. Take care.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

All right thanks guys all right bye thank you for listening to Living on Common Ground. Please follow wherever you listen to your podcasts and share it with your friends. You can also find a link to our social in the description the more people we have living on common ground the better the world will be