A Libertarian Congressman Loses

Every part of life can start to feel like a walled-off camp: your work, your church, your friend group, even your news feed. We sit down as a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who still choose friendship, and we ask a hard question out loud: if we met today, would we still be friends?

A Kentucky congressional primary turns into a bigger conversation about political polarization, libertarianism, and what happens when principle clashes with party power. We unpack why Thomas Massie became important to small-government voters, why omnibus spending bills and “must-pass” budgets are so corrosive, and how money and loyalty tests can flip allies into enemies. From there we get into the public’s demand for government transparency, including the Epstein files and other high-profile records, and why broken promises fuel distrust in institutions across the spectrum.

We also tackle the messier stories everyone argues about: reports of an IRS-related deal, claims of political weaponization, and the debate over January 6 that often gets flattened into a single narrative. Along the way we talk media algorithms, late night TV as clipped “news,” shrinking attention spans, and why long-form conversation still matters when everything else pushes us toward quick outrage. We end with perspective from US history and a reminder that understanding someone’s reasons is not the same as agreeing.

If you want more civil discourse, common ground, and honest debate without caricatures, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review. What’s one belief you’ve changed after hearing someone out?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_05 0:42

Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all! And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

Marker 6

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Okay.

Marker 7

SPEAKER_02 1:18

Good morning. Yo. Yeah. So um

Marker 9

SPEAKER_02 1:25

you're dejected

Marker 10

SPEAKER_02 1:26

about an election result that I didn't even pay attention to because I really don't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah. Yes. It is rough.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Okay. So uh tell us what the election result is and why it matters to you and why anyone else should care.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Um it is uh uh congressional election primary in Kentucky. Um Thomas Massey lost. Massey is um he is I mean libertarians kind of claim him as our own. Okay. Even though he's he's been a registered Republican forever. But he's I mean he's a very libertarian.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Okay, this is making a little more sense right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

He's been in Congress for, I don't know how long, um, twelve years, sixteen years, something like that. And always won handily. I mean, he's I mean, first of all, he's in a he's in a district where um the the Republican's gonna win, right? So that so that's that. And then so it's really just a matter of if he gets primaried, you know, if he's gonna win the primary. Right. And so and he's always he's always won the primary handily. His district has always absolutely loved him. Um he's even more libertarian, I would say, than um than Rand Paul. Those are the two.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Rand Paul's like, for those of us that aren't in the same circles as you, he often is like the poster child.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah. Yeah. Uh Justin Amash used to be um a libertarian kind of darling as well. Again, Republican, because libertarians aren't gonna get aren't gonna win. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

But um, so you you used to have Amash and and Massey, and now you just had uh AMASH left. He he uh where was he from? Oh was he I think he might have been Kentucky also. Um you know, Rampals, Kentucky. They they produce pretty uh I feel like it's there is a strand of Appalachian um kind of backwoods, leave us alone libertarianism.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

You know.

unknown 3:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Not always, but there's a big strong tradition.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

If you look at the just the history, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, sure. Um so anyway, he's he's been there forever and he's fantastic, and he is you know, um constitutionalist, and um so here's here's the thing. This is I think this is interesting. I was not upset when Trump got elected this time. Right? I wasn't. Yeah, I know you've said that. I you know, um I mean I this might upset some of my friends, but I celebrated. I I didn't vote for him, but that's because I throw my vote away every four years. Um but I was I was happy about it for a number of different reasons. And um, you know, I am not knee-jerk upset about a lot of the things that my more liberal friends are upset about, right? Um, you know, so somebody who who just was like for the last 10 years has been like, ah, I just Trump's the worst thing. It's can't believe it. This has to end, you know, blah, blah, blah. I've always been like, okay, I'm not concerned. It's fine. Um and I'll get to why I think this is interesting. I'm I'm like the this the uh the last like six months, I've been like, I'm friggin' done with Trump. Okay. And a big part of it is this is because um For a minute there, I thought you were gonna say with politics. I've said that before, but it's always a lie. I'll say it again, but I'll be lying.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Yeah, I was gonna say I don't believe that. I believe I believe for the I believe you're done with Trump. I I um I would not have believed that you're done with politics.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yeah. Um there's been several I mean, it's several things that have and it's it's it's all of the so it's all of the what I consider to be kind of a betrayal of the of what I saw as a coalition that he put together. Uh a kind of populist coalition that he put together. And um, you know, politicians lie, I get that. Politicians promise they promise. I what? I'm not naive. Okay. Uh however, you know, there were several kind of core things that I thought we were going into into this term with like no new wars, right? Less foreign entanglements. We're gonna do things like put, you know, um Bobby Kennedy in charge of of health stuff. We're gonna put um, you know, we're gonna uh put Tulsi Gabbard in charge of uh, you know, the the intelligence agencies. Um these were all supposed to be we're gonna put Cash Patel in charge of the FBI, and we are going to release everything that we've got on not just EPS team, okay, but on the the whole system that that represented all the three-letter agencies and their involvement, both ours and foreign three-letter agencies. They're not three-letter agencies.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

In all countries, but anyway, that that's all been completely betrayed. And um, you know, the thing is that so uh Massey voted against a couple of things that were uh kind of uh the trophy bills that that Trump wanted, like the thing that ended up being called the big beautiful bill, right? It's just a budget omnibus. Massey voted against it. He always votes against that because he's actually a fiscal conservative. So he votes against those types of things. Or he he votes for amendments to try to what what Massey's always said, which is I think um the right way to look at it, is that we should not be voting on omnibus bills, which are bills that are like cobbled together. Like a lot of different things get added onto one thing. They pass by continuing resolution, and it's it just gets passed in the Yeah, and that's the idea of the pork. Yeah, and and what he has always said, which is a a small government thing, um vote on these bills, but separate them out. Make make our representatives vote on each different issue. Right. Right. Anyway, but you can vote on a bill where you're like, I'm gonna fund the troops, but then also there's like because it's a budget bill that you can also stick in all these other funding things.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Funding things and things. Yeah, or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

That's right. Yep. So anyway, um he voted against these, and um, that really pissed Trump off. And uh he and some out well, how am I gonna say this? Because I'm not gonna get into a lot of this, but there there was funding, enormous funding, uh, from outside of Kentucky. Enormous. The most expensive congressional um, definitely the most expensive congressional uh primary race ever in history. And that's I think that's adjusted for inflation too. Um to prop up a guy, to bring in a guy um who number one was a never Trumper who left the Republican Party when Trump came in um because of that. Uh you know, there's there's like multiple things where he um he's he was up until last year, was like I'm Trump's enemy. But he saw an opportunity, he flipped Trump and all of his um outside uh funding sources, poured something like 28 to 30 million dollars into this race. And um from like a total, I think total it was like 70 donors, whereas Massey has, you know, what he always has, which is like thousands of donors that are, you know, average of a couple hundred bucks and that kind of thing. Anyway, whatever. The thing is, I thought, oh, this one's gonna be close because they are really trying, but I did not, I honestly I did not think that he was gonna lose. I mean, he's he's he always gets like 80% of the vote in the primary, you know. They love him. Um, but it worked, and um, you know, uh, whatever. It is what it is.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Here's the thing that I find interesting. Okay, so obviously now it makes more sense that he's he represents a libertarian position, and and so now it makes more sense because you live in Tennessee, you're from California, why would you care about Kentucky? But it is a United States congressional position, and it's one that seems to align more closely with you than maybe uh others would.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Yeah, and I've been following Bassey forever. So I get that.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

So the I think this is an interesting the the and the reason I think this kind of relates to other stuff. Last week we were talking about um Jackson and um Davy Crockett. Yeah. And you were talking about how Crockett had opposed Jackson and s on some bill or something like that, and then he became enemy number one with Jackson.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

And he crushed he crushed Crockett after that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

This is exactly what happened here. Yeah. Right. And so um, so uh Massey became all he did in the early part what is this? This is so in in mid-2025, all he did was say, um, okay, uh you have a huge coalition of people, Trump, of people who uh part of the reason that you swept in in an overwhelming way is because they expect you to release the information that both parties have been lying to the American people about when it comes to Epstein, JFK files, MLK files, these these types of files. We all know that we've been lied to constantly, right? They stare down the barrel of the camera and they say something that cannot be true, right? Um, and we all know that. And Trump sweeps into power saying, you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna release all of this, right? And then, and I don't, you know, I'm not gonna get into too much of the detail here, but like um that whole scene where uh they in the first like month, you know, when Trump's doing the executive order after executive order after executive order in the first month, and then they they bring all the um the journalists in to uh to give them the Epstein files, and then all those, yeah, I don't know if you remember that, the video of all of them walking out with the binders. And it was nothing. They didn't give him anything. And then the and uh and then the um the AG just lying and and saying that, well, they're all on my desk, but you can't see them yet, and then and then like you know, a couple weeks later saying there is nothing else, and that you know, whatever. And so Massey went, okay, look, all I'm gonna I'm gonna introduce a bill to require you to release this stuff like you said you were going to, you know? And it wasn't targeting Trump. It wasn't, you know, but uh because Trump was president at that point, Trump became a target for um for commentary from the left about the Epstein Files as if as if um Trump was the main focus of the Epstein Files, right? And he didn't like that. So he really wanted that pushed away, that story pushed away. But Massey was uh requiring it uh in these uh in you know, in this law that he um that he got passed, and um you know, so that made Trump mad also. And then he votes against the big beautiful bill for fiscal reasons. Um and so anyway, so all of this to say this is how you get you get people who ostensibly are on the same side as enemies. Yeah, right. And like I'm sitting here like, you know, um, you know, you might have you might have hated Trump from the beginning. I get that, fine. I I didn't, but now I've got I've got no truck with him. I'm not because because he came after somebody who I know to be principled and like an ally. And it reminds me of um, you know, like last year, I think it was last year when I was telling you I was so upset because I was on Twitter all the time, and um, I was seeing, I was seeing fighting between people that I feel like should be allies with each other, you know? Yeah. Um, and then they go after each other. And I just I man, I just hate it. Anyway, so that's where I am today. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

So while we're talking about uh Trump and we're talking about money, there's a couple things that have made the news this week, and I want to get your take on that too. Yep. So the first one is that um uh that Trump has made it or is working to make it. I don't know what the he made a deal with the IRS that's gonna grant him, it all of his businesses and his family tax. Like I I wouldn't say tax immunity, but um immunity from pending tax audits. And you know, the way that the articles are being written, it's it's a little it's a little uh tricky to understand exactly what's happening here. Yeah. And I mean that's intentional, right? Because depending on who you're trying to um who you're trying to uh draw. To cater to, sure. There you go. That's the word I was looking for. You're gonna write it differently, right? So like one of them says that uh um that yeah he grants himself tax immunity, which I don't think that's I mean, I guess it could be if you're not allowed to be edited, if you're not allowed to be audited. I don't know. Okay, so tell me about that. What's going on with that one?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

I don't know a lot of detail, but I do know that originally what was being reported is that it's a deal being struck um because uh uh Trump had a really large lawsuit out against um against the IRS. Um it's like $1.4 billion lawsuit or something like that, that they've been litigating. And uh the deal that his attorney struck had something to do with um dropping that lawsuit in exchange for setting up some fund in order to um uh in order to defend against um IRS prosecution from for uh for the way it was reported is like for other entities and individuals who had been um targeted for political reasons or something like that. And so I assume this is part of that deal.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

And I don't know the details of it, but you know, these types of things are struck from time to time with the right so that attorneys I didn't know if it was the same thing or not, but I knew that the the anti-weaponization fund.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Right, which is uh it's one point eight, but I think it's actually technically 1776, right? Isn't it supposed to be like one million or no, one billion whatever? I think that's the one.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Are they trying to line it up with 1776? Yes. I hate that.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Yeah, so it's one point eight billion is it what it gets rounded off to, but it's actually one billion seven hundred million dollars.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

You know, I hate that kind of stuff um because I find it so trite. But the thing is, I should learn my lesson. It works. That kind of thing works. Yeah. The whole like naming a bill, um, you know, we love the children act, and it and it really is for like, I don't know, the increasing your grocery tax by 20% or whatever, that works. Yeah. Just like like rhyming things works for people. Sure. Even though I hate it, I find it to be so trite, but I should learn my lesson. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

So apparently another big thing that's coming out of that is that some of the people that were part of the um uh the storming of the Capitol are going to be uh potentially gonna be compensated as people that were targeted by the government. Does that sound ridiculous? Or am I or am I just being No, that one, that one we probably are on uh different sides of. Okay, tell me. Tell me, I'm I'm all about learning. All right. Tell me, tell me what I'm missing. Why would someone who stormed the Capitol is on video of having stormed the Capitol be eligible to be given money by the United States government uh uh as a um in compensation for being targeted by the government? How could you be targeted by the government when you participated in something like that?

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Okay. So uh number one, um, if we're gonna use the terminology storming the capital, I already know where we're starting.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

So that's one part of the Trevor Burrus, so would you say that that did that they didn't storm the capital? Like how would you phrase it then?

SPEAKER_01 20:54

There are thousands of people. Some I would categorize as storming, and some I would categorize as walking into a door that was opened by the police officers.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Some I would categorize as rioting. Okay. Some I would categorize as uh taking um taking uh an unaccompanied tour, staying within the ropes and uh walking through the Capitol.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

And some of those who walked through and didn't do it. I mean, really, as far as I'm concerned, I watched a lot of the video. Weren't doing it. I mean, they were yes, they were there, yes, they were walking through, they were not rioting, they were not, you know. Some of those people were thrown in federal prison for years and years. And so, yeah, I I can see the um the the justification for that kind of thing. Uh for now, uh, you know, I don't know if. if they should be compensated or I don't know. Okay, what I hear, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

But the other side is that I do think that we are I think we're way further down the road of um using whatever tools we have available to us um to to hurt our political enemies.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

I think we're way further down the road than than most people think. And I think that there's a lot of people that I hear that would say yeah that's right because of Trump. And I would say I think Trump's just a symptom. I think that that that line has been I don't know I I don't know that I could say there's a date when it started but um I know that when my the back gosh under the Obama years that the IRS was being used to um uh to audit particular um nonprofits that were considered conservative nonprofits that um uh that the AG's office was being used to um investigate um uh groups of parents that were showing up at at school board meetings and were upset about COVID restrictions they were being investigated um my I'm not trying to I'm really not trying to say so therefore it's Obama's fault or therefore it's Joe Biden's fault. My point is really I really do think we're probably way further down that road and it's not that's not good.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

That's not I I well I mean that's part of what I talk about. Um one of the things that I think well do I I don't want to put it um one of the things that I have observed is that we're no longer actually trying and we I think we've talked about this we're not actually trying to solve issues anymore because issues are good weapons to use against your political opponents.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Right uh like for example if we were really concerned about if anybody was really concerned about tightening border security we would have done it. But it's much better to be able to point out how the other ones solutions to border security are the wrong solutions instead of saying how do we come up a solution? Yeah. So I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

And by the way I'll bet that this going back to this uh January 6th you know compensating people whatever I'll bet that there will be people that I would be like okay they were rioting. Sure. They were you know they they shouldn't have been doing what they were doing and they'll get compensated and I you know what I mean? Like I I'll bet that that will be it'll be all in the mix.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

And so then both sides will be able to find their person and be like see they're just illegally blah blah blah blah blah whatever you know yeah well the the the that was good for me to hear you sort of your take on that because um what I heard, correct me if I'm wrong is that there that yes the Capitol was stormed that day. But there were also people there that were that were there that weren't necessarily part of the quote unquote storming of the Capitol that there was that there was degrees there was varying degrees of people that were in the vicinity people that were participating uh to even varying degrees of participation in what was taking place that day. But to say that they like but to but to um but to just lump them all together is sort of um that's not fair either.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

And I think that um the federal government would go after those that they could get that they could get and a lot of those and people are people that I really don't think that they should have. And then um the other another um little quirk to this it's not a little quirk as far as I'm concerned is as far as I'm concerned it I'm I'm compelled and convinced that um federal informants were involved in the entire thing and were instigating it. And and that's not new by the way that's not new um I mean the I first heard of this kind of thing happening under Bush during the the height of the war on terror you'd get FBI agents CIA agents that would find some kid who's probably not super bright but he's Muslim he's got a Muslim name and he's got you know and get them real riled up about you know don't you don't you uh hate the fact that uh we bombed the village that you know where your family comes from and whatever don't you want to do something about that? You know, three or four of them get this kid and maybe his friend or whatever give him all the bomb materials get him to say that he's gonna make the bomb and then bust him and then bust him.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

Yeah. Well I mean we see that even with um would start out maybe as peaceful protests turning into violent riots. And um you know the accusations have always been from both sides that well there's somebody there that there's a group of people that were sent there in order to kind of fan the flame.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Now we certainly have done I mean like in Canada Okay you you I mean you caught me on a day man. Good good maybe maybe uh I mean virtually every color revolution across Europe as far as I'm concerned it's a CIA op I mean you know anyway. That sounds like it's on the verge of a conspiracy theorist. I mean uh Vic except Victoria Newland was on the record saying they did it I mean they she specifically said they did it or they were about they were gonna do it there they were doing it and they needed this guy in the position instead of that guy. And then and then it then it happened anyway in in Ukraine. That was the Ukrainian sure uh most recent Ukrainian one right are we gonna publish this this episode?

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah great yeah it it's gonna come out on um what I don't know what day the 28th may 28th good yep yeah wait do you think this will be our last episode we'll see I don't know they just uh they just shut down yeah like we're nowhere near enough people listen um but what about the fact that uh Stephen Colbert just had his last episode yep thank thanks to Trump thanks to Trump yeah not thanks to his terrible ratings thanks to Trump see this is the thing this is the thing I and Jimmy Kimmel's next I'm such a probably that's just I I feel like that's that's late night TV I mean I I'm just trying to rile you up no I know but like man they're I I just feel like that um genre of entertainment um I don't think it necessarily has anything to do with their politics honestly I think that it's like what what could their ratings be at this point? You know how many how many people could really be I don't know I have to be honest I I like um so I think uh when I think about Stephen Colbert and I think about uh Jordan was it Klepper Kepler I don't know uh I forget how to say his name um anyway uh he he was always part of the the uh daily show uh and he would be like the guy out there with the microphone and then he would ask you questions and he would always look for the most ridiculous person yeah yeah and then twist them around. Yeah um he's very good at what he does he's very funny. Um and then uh um you know Jimmy Kimmel who Jimmy Kimmel was I think he hit his stride when he remember that show that he was on the man show. Yeah that that was probably when he was at his best he was yeah you know he was he and Adam Carolla were like yeah that was good and then I like Jon Stewart uh you know but but I the only time like I don't watch any of them they show up on my social media feeds right right because of the algorithm yeah but that's all I see are little clips of that's what I mean and half the clips I'm like I don't think that that's like some of them I even watch and I'm like was that AI created anymore? Because sure you know my kids are really good at being able to identify what was AI and what's not yeah but sometimes I'm getting better at it but sometimes I can't yeah tell um video wise.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Well and then there's also Jimmy Fallon and Seth Myers have their own show.

SPEAKER_02 31:41

I mean do you every once right forgot about Jimmy Fallon and Chay Leno, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Maybe anyway the point is the as the point is like I don't who watches who watches Seth Myers who watches Seth Myers and I like Seth Myers I'm not trying to say and I like Jimmy Fallon. They were great on Saturday and by the way uh I loved the Colbert rapport when he was doing that that was and that was all they all he was making fun of my side right and I loved it. Well he was that was part of the daily show yeah so good.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Yeah so he got his own thing from that and then Jon Stewart came back to the daily show. Yeah I think I think these guys I used to watch the daily show years ago when Jon Stewart was first doing it not when he came back. Yeah but um daily uh the daily show's great that's great also I don't watch it anymore I have no idea I haven't watched it in forever but I I I think it's good. I think that uh but I think it was also back in the day it was important to remember it was on the comedy show. It was it was on the comedy network or whatever it's called.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Now I think it's where people actually get their news yeah that's true.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

And that happened I think um I remember that conversation happening 15 years ago when people were I remember people saying like I think some people are getting their news from the daily show. Like that's the only news that they watch and that was like 15 years ago I know that people get their news from TikTok. Yeah well that's true.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

So we get it we now get our news and again I'm thinking back eight second sound bites or whatever. Right? I'm I'm now getting and now I'm going all the way back to uh Neil Postman abusing ourselves to death.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Yeah I could I would love to hear what he would have to say about I think he would say today obviously obviously that was going to happen. Yeah and at some point it's gonna be do you did you ever watch um uh Demolition Man that movie uh I remember the name of it I don't think I ever saw it it's great I love it Sylvester's uh Sylvester Stallone and Wesley Snipes uh Sandra Bullock it's future it's like dystopian future it doesn't matter the it's dystopian future but it's but it's dystopian Sandra Bullock hard up for money at the time because I'm thinking about the two uh like are you said Arnold no who who Sylvester Stallone Sylvester Stallone and Wesley Wesley Snipes but this is peak Wesley Snipes this is like Blade Wesley Snipes this is before he goes to uh for even even blade was a bit of an eye roll really oh man that must be a generational thing because I love Blade yeah it was fine but it was like this is it is a little ridiculous but it man it was so cool I thought it was so cool anyway uh I liked Wesley Snipes in uh um major league I've never seen Major League what yeah I know it's a baseball thing I haven't but you know that's the most offensive thing you've said today I remember my friends talking about it but I for whatever reason I just never saw it wow anyway in this uh in this movie it's it's futuristic and it's like everyone is at peace um and then you find out it's because the government's like controlling everything blah blah blah whatever anyway so it's kind of dystopian but it's also um you know everyone's at peace but one of the things is um nobody has sex anymore so they have ver they put on they go on a date and then they come back and they put on like VR headsets that flash like erotic things in in their eyes and sounds and whatever. And then that's that's what because it and then babies are made in in tubes. Yeah like like Brave New World or whatever, you know um but it's it's like for hygiene and for you know whatever. And so they they have no concept of actual sex anymore and blah blah blah. So my point being I think Neil Postman would be like well obviously that's where we will go we'll go everything's getting shorter and faster and it'll just be until it's just just the feelies. It's just it's just flashes of things, you know? And I wouldn't bet against that. I mean if I was gonna if I was gonna um put my money down on something, I would say don't bet against the limbic system. You know what I mean? Like it'll be shorter and shorter and that's you can't you can't go, well maybe because everything is such a short attention span now, we'll do the long attention span thing and then there'll be a market for it. Because maybe you know that's that's what I hear from the people that I like the Brett Weinstein's the Joes Rogan they say that kind of stuff. And of course Joe Rogan has like the long form right conversations but they they will say things Heather Hying they will say things like you know this is showing that there's an appetite for it.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

And I think maybe or maybe it's just a short reaction and really long term we will continue going shorter and shorter and shorter in its so eventually our podcast is going to go because it started out it was about an hour a little over an hour then we we've cut it back to about now it's usually around 45 to 50 minutes. Eventually we're gonna have a 10 minute podcast we're gonna come in you're just gonna say something to piss everybody off and then we'll be done. There you go. Perfect that sounds great. We'll be able to record an entire months episode two months in in uh one day ah that's great.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

I know some people that are friends of mine that would love that I just man anyway so yeah so I'm look I've said forever I'm politically homeless I'm a pain in the butt I'm I'm always like if I sense the direction of thought going one direction I'm like well maybe you know um uh so I you know it's not surprising to me to find myself here and it's funny because um I'll say I'll kind of say stuff like this about Trump in particular, right? And I'll have friends of mine be like yeah because it's because he's crazy because he's doing X, Y, or Z or whatever and I'm like, no that's not what I meant.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Like that's not no I'm fine with that actually but anyway I don't know what's the point of this well it was interesting to me to um hear your perspective. Let me tie my own rope no I I got to hear your perspective on um the the current political climate um you educated me on um what? On um you helped me understand some you you pointed out some blind spots for me where as a person who appreciates nuance, I'm speaking about myself now, uh that I didn't see it. And so that's helpful to realize that um we don't even the things that we value we don't always see in the things that we're looking at um because of what we're anticipating seeing. Right? So when we talked about Sure does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Yeah I do and obviously obviously I do the same thing. Obviously I have my blind spots and obviously uh I think that I am being um speaking from an educated position when in reality uh I'm being fed a particular algorithm as well right and so I have to remember that I I think it was always great to remember that there's generally an understandable reason for somebody to have their point of view right like it's not because you know they're stupid or they're bad and the bad people do the bad things because they're bad.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

You know we're not saying that there aren't stupid people and that there aren't bad people I just want to go on record that open just want to go on record as saying that um because there are people Lucas that I look at and I think man you're stupid or man you're just a bad person. Is that wrong of me?

SPEAKER_01 40:18

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

I've I'm positive that uh actually I hope that people understand that I'm that's in jest. Um well I don't know but there are I think there are people that that you that is a natural reaction when you see things especially the things that don't make any sense to you um or that you you know but to your point it it is it is um most people I'll go I'll go as far as to say most people have very good reasons for doing and saying what they do and say very good reasons in their mind to them to them. Yeah I don't think that's rational by the way I don't think I don't think these positions are rational 100% I agree with that. It's just understandable yeah it's understandable it goes back to me it goes back to the um the Dunning Kruger effect right if that is all you know then that will be your position right and yes that may be the on uh to use their vernacular uh Mount Stupid but then if you're going to go through the valley of despair you're willing to take on that there's more nuance to it which is very scary and frustrated that you can come through and your position may not change but at least you want you can begin to like we're talking about right now at least understand why other people might hold the positions they hold.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

That's the thing. I just think you know for myself if I can remember it's if if I had their experience I almost certainly would I certainly if I had their experience I I would think and feel like them maybe I don't see how it could be other any other way. If I had all the variables those that can be measured in the whole yeah everything in exactly the way that they got it including the molecular structure of their body I'm with you on that then I would respond the way that they respond just like I am responding the way that I respond.

SPEAKER_02 42:33

Yep and now we're getting into the idea of free will always comes back to that with me huh right so I will say something that's been very helpful to me that I read um let's see how many books ago did I read it? One, two, three, four, five six books ago um The Soul of America have I mentioned that already by John Meachum I found that extremely helpful for perspective since we're talking about perspective right now. And we're wrapping up but um it made me realize that what I'm looking at when I look at our political climate today and I can get very frustrated by it. I can become I can uh start to feel like defeated by it I can start to feel like I just want to um retire and go live with just Denise somewhere where no one else can bother us.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

Whenever I see what no problems with this plan.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

No I'm not saying there's a problem with that plan. But what I am saying is that when I get like I was when you get to that point, do a little bit of studying of the history of the United States and the presidency.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Oh sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

And you'll realize it's not like it's been worse before. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

You know and here we are and Yeah like last week you were talking about the smear campaign that Jackson did to uh to David Crockett and I was my my thought was like Like, oh man, I have read about the smear campaigns that happened in the um in the 18th century and early 19th century. They were horrific. Rough.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

They didn't even care if it sounded like truth. Right. Like they weren't even trying to veil it.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

Go after all aspects of your life.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Everything.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Yeah. And the craziest thing to me is like when you look at like going back to the like the first presidency stuff, not Washington, nobody dared. Yeah. Right. But but like Adams and Jefferson. Jefferson, the things that they would say, and then at the end of the day, they still like how do you remain friends? They were friends. Yeah, they were friends. How do you remain friends? But they were really for a long time. Hamilton was a douchebag. The things that he would write and say. And again, against Jefferson, it was a very good thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

The real villain of the early American experiments, as far as I'm concerned, Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton? Uh-huh. Yeah. The establishment of the first national bank.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

I mean, you know, I think the best thing that ever happened to Adam Hamilton, his yeah, his um legacy was Lynn Broadwell Miranda. Yes, the Broadway show. Yeah. Yeah. Because it makes him sound like a real hero.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

He was amazing. Well, okay. We're wrapping up. So I have thought about this. He gets that re he gets to have that reputation because he is considered to be on the right side of one issue, slavery. That's it. Because of that, that's what I think. Because of that, we are allowed to think that this guy who represented, I'm telling you, everything that the left is supposed to hate. Everything. The whole um, you know, uh 99% movement, we are the 99 and whatever, you know, the Occupy Wall Street movement, all of that. You're talking about Hamilton. Hamilton's the one that set all that up. He represented all that. And by the way, that's the industry that I represent too. So, you know, I get it. That's where, but I'm just saying he because he is considered to be on the right side of slavery. Um, I think that he he gets a pass on all of that in our current uh setup. Our current our current culture. Anyway, whatever. Which which is good. It is it is a plus, it is in the plus column for him. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Sure. And I guess uh the other thing too to think about then is maybe maybe certain issues do carry more weight than others. In our own minds, even though we may not do it that way. Yeah. All right, thanks. All right.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

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