Throw The Cooler Or Jump In

A teen lifeguard fights through heavy surf and pulls a kid to safety, and the clip goes viral for a reason: it hits that raw place in all of us that wants to move toward danger when someone is drowning. But then the headlines shift to warnings, expert quotes, and the familiar refrain that untrained people should not go in. That’s where our conversation really starts, because the advice can be true and still expose something broken in our culture.

We talk through the real safety logic behind “reach or throw, don’t go,” why bystanders can unintentionally create more victims, and what smart action looks like when you don’t have the training or tools. From there we zoom out into a bigger theme: the slow outsourcing of responsibility to authority. We’re grateful for lifeguards, firefighters, EMTs, and police, but we’re wary of a world where those roles quietly become the only acceptable way to help, and where ordinary people feel they’re doing something wrong if they act.

We also wrestle with balance. When do you step aside because professionals are already handling it, and when does procedure become a barrier to basic human duty? We touch the Uvalde tragedy as an extreme case, debate “cowboy hero” impulses versus “petty tyrant” bureaucracy, and land on a practical middle path: training, preparation, and community readiness so you can help without becoming the next emergency.

If this topic hits a nerve, hit play, then subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find these conversations. What’s your line between courage and recklessness?

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SPEAKER_00 0:02

Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends?

SPEAKER_04 0:34

I don't know. But we're friends now.

SPEAKER_07 0:38

A mom is known as a mom because they are living in a dog. Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all! And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.

SPEAKER_06 1:13

Hey, how are ya? Great.

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SPEAKER_06 1:15

Good. So

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SPEAKER_06 1:16

what'd you bring for us? I know we were gonna we

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SPEAKER_06 1:18

we had talked about talking about something, but what do you got?

SPEAKER_03 1:21

I just I saw this article.

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SPEAKER_03 1:26

Uh and it struck me as something that um I think is a real problem that's like a larger cultural issue, and I thought it'd be interesting to talk about it.

SPEAKER_06 1:36

So let's do this when when we have topics like this that you think are really important, we'll do that, and then we can fill in with the reflection stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Yeah, that's good. And also your reflection stuff has to do with uh uh a lot of reflections that you have when you're on the beach. And this uh took place on the beach. Okay. So I thought it's it's not really related, although we probably could make it related.

SPEAKER_06 1:57

We don't have to, don't even try. So by the way, I did talk to somebody this week. Uh, they were talking about last week's episode. And they were talking about like when they had gotten to the end, and I was like, oh my gosh, you made it all the way to the end.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

What'd they say about it?

SPEAKER_06 2:13

They're like, Yeah, it was it was good. So they enjoyed it. Um, so we know at least one person spent like was willing to listen all the way to the end and see that even though it was often just uh me boring people with what I was talking about. Not you, we're both just rambling. Yeah, but um there was we did actually arrive at a point.

SPEAKER_03 2:35

Well, all right, so go ahead. I'm impressed with them. Impressed with us. Also, I really like printing out this uh this article because then I can make this sound. Yeah, because it makes me feel like uh I'm Rush Lamba because he's always different.

SPEAKER_06 2:48

I was gonna say it's definitely um news. Like it sounds like news, like this is that's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Okay, he would talk and then he would like he'd read an article and you could hear it in the background in the paper. Like, make a point. Anyway, whatever. Uh okay. Just I'm just old and I like things from the 90s. Okay, so here's this article. Um, so I don't know if you uh have seen this video, but this is referencing a video that um they say went viral. It was it was on everyone's feed. Okay. Uh the headline is a teens lifeguard's ocean rescue went viral. Experts warn beachgoers not to make the same move. So the video is um I did, I did I didn't watch long, but I did it did pop up as death scrolling one night.

SPEAKER_06 3:36

Yeah. And I saw that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Yeah. So a 16-year-old brand new uh lifeguard. And uh it's Santa Monica, so another reason why I was thinking about you. Excellent. Crazy, uh, very uh you would know now because you've been there. Um uh the waves can get very it's a reason why everyone surfs in LA is because the waves get really crazy. And um on the beach, sometimes the waves get so crazy that it's I mean, it doesn't seem like it looks like, oh, it's just kind of foamy, but when you get down into it, it's like over your head foamy, and it's really, it's really crazy. So that's what happened. Some kid, I think it was, I think they said he was like 11 or 12, something like that. So he's a young kid, um, couldn't get out of it and was definitely gonna drown. And um a brand new uh teen lifeguard got in. And when you watch the video, it takes a while for him to get him out. Um, and you can see like he's got a hold of him and he like strategically goes under the waves with him, then pops back up. He's not trying to just force him out. He like, it takes a while, but he got him out, and that was really great. And so this article, the whole point of this article, I'm gonna read a little bit of a bit, um, is about how you should not do this. You're at the beach, you see someone struggling in the water. What do you do? That's the question that's on many people's minds this week after a viral video showed a 16-year-old lifeguard rescuing a boy who is swept up by the waves on a beach in Santa Cruz, California. I guess it's Santa Cruz, not Santa Monica, sorry. Santa Cruz. Anyway.

SPEAKER_06 5:16

It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

It's more north.

SPEAKER_06 5:18

It doesn't ruin the story.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

It's more north. Um while bystanders attempted to help, ultimately, they weren't able to get the child out of the ocean, and some fell in the harsh waves themselves in the process, illustrating how challenging it can be to ensure someone. And then my printer cut it off. But anyway. All right. Then you've got then you've got some quotes here. I guess it it kind of cuts stuff off. So anyway, we'll get the gist. Here's a quote It's wonderful that people want to help, but it's extremely dangerous for an untrained bystander to go into the ocean, try to effect a rescue. Tom Gill, president of the United States Life Saving Association. I don't know what the heck that is. The United States Life Saving Association.

SPEAKER_06 6:01

I would imagine it's an organization that connects all of like um lifeguards, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

So that's set like a standard. Why would they not call it the lifeguard association and not life-saving association? I think that's interesting. I'd like to look in it. I have not looked anyway. He says, we don't want anybody else to drown. The same reason you shouldn't run into a burning house, you shouldn't run into the ocean to help someone when you are untrained. Gill says that unlike the average beachgoer, lifeguards undergo extensive training and surf rescue, including first aid and CPR. Their fitness levels are also assessed to ensure they can handle a water rescue. The average person, while trying to be helpful, could do more harm than good in a situation they aren't prepared for and are far more likely to put their own lives at risk. But that doesn't mean you should do nothing if you see someone struggling in the water. I'm I'm sorry, I was going to try to keep my voice neutral, but I am failing. But that doesn't mean you should do nothing if you see someone struggling in the water. Alyssa Magram, the executive director of National Drowning Prevention Alliance, tells Yahoo. The first step is to get a lifeguard's attention. If there's no lifeguard available, call 911 for assistance. There are things you can do to help from the shore, if possible, Magram says. We say, reach or throw, don't go. She explains, stating that you should attempt to throw or toss a flotation device to a person who is struggling, such as an inner tube, a pool noodle, or a boogie board. If these things aren't available, anything that floats, such as a cooler, can be helpful. Magram stresses that it's very important to leave the rescuing up to the lifeguards. She also acknowledges that, quote, people are people, and many will dive into the water regardless. You can't stop yourself from jumping into action. Despite expert advice telling you otherwise, Magram says you should bring a flotation device with you. Okay, there's more to it. The entire thing made my skin crawl. Why? This, in my opinion, is perfectly emblematic of a huge problem, I think, that we have in our particular culture. I think that it is a um uh it's an aspect of our culture that is an appeal to authority and it is a it is an outsourcing of responsibility to authority. And it is the same so this that quote the thing that I read here that Tom Gill says the same reason you shouldn't run into a burning house, you shouldn't run into the ocean to help someone when you are entrained. I'm sorry, Gill. If I think there is someone who is in need of help inside of a burning house, I should run into a burning house. That's a should. That is a sacred responsibility from the beginning of time, I think. I'm grateful for um official life-saving uh professions. Super grateful. Firefighters, lifeguards, you know, I think it's great. And I also think that it's very good to for a society to try to build up systems that can fill in gaps, and I think that it provides a lot of stability. Um police officers, firefighters, um you know, uh EMTs, lifeguards, these types of of people. Um but I think what happens, and this is a little bit of a feedback loop that it's not a little bit of it, I think it's a real feedback loop, is that as generations are born into those systems, there then becomes an assumption not only that um they will protect us, um and that they should protect us, but that that they are the only ones who should protect us, and that you are doing something wrong if you are attempting to help your fellow human, right? And then also those authority figures, again, you they they become authority figures instead of service figures, expect that uh you should defer your responsibilities, you should outsource your responsibilities. And I and I think that you get you end up getting situations where um in extreme examples, and this is an extreme example, you've got uh police officers in Uvaldi, Texas, who are more uh concerned with stopping the parents who want to run into the school that their kids are in during a school shooting to rescue their kids. They're more concerned with stopping those parents because they aren't doing it in, they aren't deferring to the authority, right? We've set up a perimeter, we're doing it in a particular way. We don't care if you disagree with the way that we're doing it, we're going to do it the way we have set up. And if you if you violate that, now you're the problem more than the school shooter in that circumstance. And uh, you know, I just think I I mean, I think this this teenage lifeguard is is I mean, obviously he's a hero. Obviously, you know, he's I mean he saved this kid's life.

SPEAKER_06 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

And again, this has nothing to do with I don't think that the lifeguard should do it or whatever. I don't like, and I am concerned about and I've been concerned about for a long time um this this idea that not only should we outsource our responsibility with it it again, it it's that it goes beyond I now don't have a responsibility to my fellow human. It's that I'm doing something wrong if I do the thing that I think Lucas thinks is your responsibility to your fellow human.

SPEAKER_06 12:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

And maybe this is partly because I come from California and it is you know, it is it it's an administrative state. I've noticed there's a lot of regulations. Um but it's something that I've thought about for a very long time. So I'm not surprised about this article, but it is it's a very it's a big concern. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:06

So a couple things. One um here's here's one of the things I'm surprised by. And I didn't read the article, but I thought it would just be an article about what happened. Yeah. Right? Like, oh, this is what happened, and we're so proud. And the kid was, you know, more about the lifeguard, like, you know, this is his first year, he's 16, he's been swimming, you know, whatever. About I thought it would be like a hero story. Right. Um, so I was a little surprised when it did shift into more of like, you shouldn't do try to do this, you shouldn't try to do that. Right. And I'm not surprised that as you read it, your the uh the reaction that you have to it, knowing my tone. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And I I think that that um, you know, that's fine. Um I I I didn't come away with that listening. Now I didn't read the whole article, right? And so I'm just listening to the bits and pieces of it. But but as I listened to it, one of the things I thought of is I appreciate the suggestions on what I can do.

unknown 14:04

Right.

SPEAKER_06 14:05

So if I'm if I'm there, um, you know, and I thought about I was thinking about m the beaches I've been on lately, and and especially down in um Myrtle Beach, they they had a really uh it was good, like they had those life preservers hung every so every every so many yards. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's a good thing that, you know, that's good. Um and uh and so uh I did I did chuckle at the when in my mind as you were describing uh the person suggesting you throw a cooler at them. I was like, well, I'm not okay, make sure you get all your stuff out first. Sure, yeah. Hit them with a cooler. Um full of beer. Yeah, right. So uh, but okay, that that all being said, I will say this too. Um, you know, Denise's family, uh that uh so that it's it's firefighters. Yeah. And and then like uh so her dad was a firefighter, her brother-in-law is a firefighter, her grandfather was a firefighter, um, and then Uncle Jimmy was uh chief of police. And so you've got a lot of the service people on that side. I will say this. Um I do think that there we have to be very careful not to sort of just I'm not responsible for taking care of my fellow human being. I think that that that's legitimate what you're saying. I also think that we have to consider um, am I getting in the way of the people that I can actually do more than me? Right. So like going running into a burning building, for example, example. If uh if if the police if the fire department's there and they're doing what they need to do, and I try to run past them into the fire, I'm actually creating more, I'm putting them in harm's way as they're trying to do what they need to do. And I may I may end up being the reason that the other person doesn't get rescued because now they've got to rescue me. Right. And so and I can see the same thing like any shooting. I know that's the argument. I know, but I could see the same thing in like an active shooting situation. If we've if we feel like we've got the situation under control and you go running in there and now you're shot. And let's be honest, what is our media gonna do? They're gonna immediately turn around and blame the police officers for the person being shot that that crossed the line and walked in to try to save them. You don't think so?

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Oh, they uh that might be.

SPEAKER_06 16:21

I think that might be. I think absolutely. I think absolutely what would happen is, and and I am, you know.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

I think that you I think that ironically, uh you have uh uh much higher comfortability with um uh law enforcement authority than I do.

SPEAKER_06 16:40

I do. Yeah, I I I do. And it's interesting, right? Because um I know that as a progressive, if I'm gonna put on the avatar, yeah, I shouldn't.

SPEAKER_04 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:50

But the fact of the matter is I do.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:53

Because I have like it's a family thing. My uncle.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:57

You know, my uncle was a police officer in downtown Cleveland. He was a homicide detective. Um, you know, back in the he he began in the police department in the 60s. Yeah. And so he went through a lot of things, and I've heard a lot of stories. And so and I completely respect my uncle John and what he's been through. And and um anyway, uh, but I'm also I try to be objective about things. But let's be honest, even you reading that article, you're not being completely objective. I'm not being objective at all.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

Right. I have a I have a point of view here.

SPEAKER_06 17:29

Yeah, absolutely. And so do I, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:30

And I and I know that reading it. I think your point about listening to it. Yeah, I think your point about um uh not getting in the way of people trying to to you know do their job and and and take care of the situation. Um that that's obviously a uh a good uh good point, just in in principle and in execution, in the in the situation. You know, you're in the situation. You gotta kind of that that's something I feel like you gotta kind of um uh you gotta work out at that moment. Am I am I getting in the way or am I, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 18:20

Um and granted it it it depending on the situation, it can be an emotionally charged situation and you're not thinking clearly. That's one thing. Right. So like go back to let's just go back to the the um the drowning victim. Yeah. You're the parent. Yeah. You're not thinking to myself, where can I find a flotation device?

SPEAKER_03 18:39

And here's my point. I think you shouldn't. I think that it is a changing of the organism. And and that's something that culture does, obviously. Culture changes us. I think that we have very, very different types of humans if you if you take us into different I mean, you can have very different types of humans who have extremely different assumptions about the world because of culture.

SPEAKER_06 19:08

You can I mean, especially now, I would argue with um the rapid development of media, you're seeing that change, you're seeing those changes happen quick even quicker.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

That's true. I and I just think you can um if you if you really immerse yourself into historical cultures as much as we can, you can see very different assumptions about the world and whatever. So um I I do think that you know you went to Pismo and you walked out on the pier, you can imagine you've got you know a three-year-old and that three-year-old falls off the pier.

SPEAKER_06 19:51

Yeah, I'm jumping in.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

You're jumping in and it's not cognitive.

SPEAKER_06 19:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

And you can say you're emotional and you're not thinking clearly, and you're not, you don't have like a you might die also, you might hurt yourself also. You it does not matter, right? Right? It doesn't matter. So I completely agree that there's when you're in a situation, you're just you the situation you described, there's a burning building, somebody inside, and the firefighters are there and working, trying to get them out. And then you push past them.

SPEAKER_06 20:24

Yeah, like you see in the movies, the person shows them like, oh my god, my god, and then they try to go through and then they stop them. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

And you know, I'm not even gonna concede really that that I think that it's that you've done the right thing by not pushing past them. Uh I'll just say, Cars on the table. Even though I think that that is a legitimate argument. I totally can see both sides to that, and I can definitely see the in good faith firefighter who's trying to do his job and save your relative, his argument saying, you're making the job harder, and now I've got to deal with you. You know, I can I I I think it's a good faith argument, and I understand it. I'm just saying, like, I'm not so sure that I still think you shouldn't. Right.

SPEAKER_06 21:12

No, no, no, no, I hear what you're saying. What you're saying, what I'm hearing you say is I think it's a legitimate argument, I think that in your mind that's a legitimate argument, firefighter. I just don't agree with it.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

I just can't. There's something pr like ancient, more ancient than you, that I'm sorry, I gotta obey. But okay, but aside from that, what I'm talking about is, and and and what I think is happening in at least maybe i you know, uh in the culture that I that I came from, is there's the burning building, but the firefighters are not there. It's super dangerous to run in there and try to save your relative. So what you should do is call 911 and wait for the firefighters to get there. Right. Because if you go in, you might Become trapped, you might die. Right. And and but I do think that there is a um a point of view that espouses that belief that that's what you should do, that there is a should, a should that that says don't go in. And I think that's very concerning. I think that's very concerning as we continue to well, I've already repeated myself five times, outsource our responsibility.

SPEAKER_06 22:31

Yeah. Okay. So I think um I don't have on on a uh um just sort of on the on a surface level, I don't have any issue with what you're saying. Uh if if I just take away that we we can't we can't um what's what's the word I'm looking for? Sort of delegate our responsibility away.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:53

Um that we do need to accept some responsibility for our neighbor, whoever that may be, um, in situations where they are in danger. Uh the interesting thing, though, is I think that uh it happens for all kinds of reasons, and I think that uh to a s there that there's a certain level that each one of us are willing to put ourselves in, or sit particular situations that we might be actually willing to put ourselves in danger, or not even think twice about doing it, right? So that's true. So I think that there are some people in this world that um and and maybe it is different now than it would have been years ago. I don't I don't know, I don't know that either, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:34

But like uh well, I'll tell you Krista and I have talked about this um moving to the South. Uh, and we noticed it when we were traveling in Texas as well. That, and this might just be anecdotal and it might not, you know, some anthropologist might argue with us. I feel like the culture here is far more closer to what we used to have before we had like more of an administrative state, like a like a social compact type, you know, um uh a situation where there's an expectation that if somebody if somebody trips and falls, you've got to go over and help them if they're a stranger.

SPEAKER_06 24:22

Yeah, that's the expectation, I think. That is not the expectation.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Everywhere.

SPEAKER_06 24:27

Everywhere. And well, and and okay, to make it worse now, a lot of times when it's a stranger or something like that, what we're actually doing is getting our phones out and recording it and then trying to become a viral video.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 24:38

That's a yeah, that's a yeah, that's a different that's a whole it's a different thing, but I think it maybe that's connected to the problem. Um okay. So a couple things is I you you mentioned Texas and and Tennessee and things like that. My concern as far as um regulations and and sort of over um what would be the word I'm looking for here? Um uh over regulating. Okay. Yeah. Um is that you can also it's it's not just it's not just the progressive side that's doing that. We can also do that on a more conservative side. Um and so I think that I think in all of these things, how do you find the balance between that, right? Yeah. Um and uh um so for for example, let's just take a silly one. Um in California, I I mentioned last week, there's no place that I can legally smoke a cigar. A little hyperbole, but it felt like that. It's very close. I was like, why do they even have a cigar shop and I can't smoke it anywhere? Yeah. Here, I like okay, so then flip that. And let's say that it became a different group of people that were regulating, and now all of a sudden there's you can smoke everywhere, and we legal like, and that's what becomes the legal norm. And maybe maybe there doesn't matter. We'd be a proper country again. Okay, there you go. Uh but but maybe there does need to be some sort of balance between that. And I think we've lost balance. Now, to the thing we're talking about today. I think that there are some people that actually are relieved that they have been relieved of the responsibility. One a hundred percent. And it's like, whoo, okay, good.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Now I now I don't even have to worry about it. Right. And I don't think that's conscious. Sometimes it probably is, but I think mostly it's not.

SPEAKER_06 26:21

And that's what I mean when I say I think we're also in our minds, um, we're in our minds, we're way more heroic than we actually are. Of course. Right. Of course. Absolutely. So even the person who's like, oh, thank God I don't have to run into that burning building, they may not be consciously doing that, but in their mind, they would think, man, if if it wasn't for the law, I would completely run in there.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

That very well might be. And I would say, actually, I think that you're right that we are far more courageous and brave in our mind than we are in real life, almost certainly, as a species, as a as a people. I also think that you've got to be in order to be somewhat courageous in real life. It's like you're, when you're in your mind, it's like you're practicing that this is what I would do, this is what I would do. And I would look look at me and the and then the moment comes up, and maybe you fail, maybe you don't do it, but maybe you do. Maybe you do like half what you what you think you would do or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:22

I I think um if I'm being completely honest, the type of person I am is um it would have to be somebody that I love before I would put myself in harm's way. So like the burning building thing. If I saw my if I saw my neighbor's house on fire, I'm calling 911. Right. And um, I doubt very highly that I'm running in and scouring to make sure everybody's okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 27:51

Um if if if it's my own house with my family in there, I'm running through that entire thing until I know everybody's out. Obviously. Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. And I would bet right I know, I think you're being a little self-effacing, which is you're trying to be honest, and I think that's that's good. But um, I would bet that if it was one of your neighbors that you knew, sure, even if it's not a friend, but you knew them and their house is on fire, and you're saying to your other neighbors, you know, is Nancy out of there? I don't know, I haven't seen Nancy. Uh there'd probably be something inside your gut that'd be like they're not here yet. Somebody's got to check. I'm gonna go check, see if Nancy's gonna be. And maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't.

SPEAKER_06 28:34

But I I what I'm saying is I'm already thinking about how I would probably have to get a wet cloth, put it over my face.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

And like I've already thought about like I bet there's I I bet there's just something inside you that's gonna go. I can't, it's it's impossible that I could stand here watching her house burn and know that I didn't do anything. Right. You know what I mean? Like I it's just that's impossible. Maybe I'm not gonna run through the whole house, but maybe I'm gonna, you know, just at least look through the windows.

SPEAKER_06 29:02

I am the person that if the proper authorities are in place, I'm not interfering. Sure. But man, that would be really hard if it was my children. Right? Yeah. Um, so I don't know. So what do we do?

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Oh, I don't know that there's uh to do because I think that your point is well taken that in the moment there's some balance there of um you know, okay, so let's let's let's strip it down for a second.

SPEAKER_06 29:39

Yeah, because what I was gonna say real quick, but I do want to hear what you say. Back to the idea of the regulation thing. My concern is the cowboy, the person who has in their mind decided that they are fricking Superman and they're all the time running around, getting themselves into situations. Um, I think there's I just think there has to be a balance.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

And my concern is the petty tyrant.

unknown 30:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:03

It's the one that's so how do you get the balance? I guess is what I'm asking.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

It's just, it's just very, I think that that is a uh probably a difference in our temperaments that the cowboy is the one that you'd be concerned about. And I'm not as concerned. I'm not concerned about it.

SPEAKER_06 30:15

I remember having a conversation here about okay, you you weren't here yet. Um I don't even know if you guys lived in Tennessee yet, but there was a shooting at a church here in Nashville.

SPEAKER_05 30:25

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 30:25

And um, and so our church began to talk about like what what do we do in an active shooting situation? And we had people that were like, Well, I I got a gun. I'm gonna bring it. And I was like, No, because my fear is that I'm I'm saying the cowboy, but you know what I mean. Yeah, no, I know I'm gonna get shot. Right. Because I do know also, and this is where I talk about like, how do you find the balance? Because I do know the the two of the people that were like, I I got a gun. The reason they have a gun is because that of that shooting, and they went to a fire range for one day and bought a uh a pit uh like a sidearm.

SPEAKER_05 31:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 31:03

And I'm like, I don't trust that, but I do have friends, but now here's the other thing, too. I do have friends that I know have been properly trained, yeah, that I would be fine with them carrying a sidearm with me.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:16

You know? So I do think that okay, so maybe it goes back to like how we used to all do remember like C we still have to do it here at the church as part of our job, but CPR training and things like that. Yeah. That that train people to do things rather than telling them to just not get in the way. I mean Okay, so I interrupted you. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

No, that's okay. I think I think that's I think it's a good example. I think the CPR thing is a good example. Um but if you I mean if you if you strip it all down and you assume that we don't have any kind of we don't have the the quote unquote proper authorities for any of this stuff. Okay, we're just people living together, right? And somebody's house on fire and uh we're all trying to figure out what we're gonna do. There's somebody in there, what are we gonna do? We kinda know that you know, Jim builds houses, let's say. He builds all of our houses, he knows how to knock down houses and he's got an axe, right? I think that it's likely that our little group would kind of defer to Jim. Get in there. He's the he's the one that knows what to do, right? And so some of this absolutely comes from the idea that hey, we need to have the gyms or the carols, you know, whatever. We need to have these people who know what they're doing, and so we're going to train them as a system so that everyone has access to this person. And then they're going to be pro they're properly. I always I always kind of hesitate at these terms, the properly trained because properly is just like we've all kind of decided that this is the right way to do it. This is the way you should do it. But fine, okay. They've been trained, they had some training, but after a while they become the authorities. And that is okay for a system to uh kind of fix a problem most of the time. And I want most of the time for the problem to be solved to be fixed. I I I'm not saying that we should eliminate the fire department or hearing these things.

SPEAKER_06 33:51

I'm not hearing you say that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

What I am saying is once these systems are in place, there will be naturally some subsect of them that will be petty tyrants. That is just inevitable. I don't know a whole lot about fighting fires, but I know a lot about human interaction in groups. And I know if you give authority to a group of people, they will drift toward a petty tyrant. That's what will happen. And that is okay. It doesn't make them bad people. It means I think you have to maintain it. The I think that if you have too much of we just we don't have any kind of systems at all. If you get too many people together and you have no systems at all, I think you got a problem. So just like I complain about the road systems around here, right? I think that's a an example of how all of these, the the traffic the traffic culture, the driving culture around here works fine in a low population density area. The problem really is because the population density grew so rapidly. And I think you've got to have some systems and some rules. You can't have people driving across freaking yellow diagonal lines because you're not, you're supposed to treat them like a meridian people. You can't have people driving both directions in the turning lane. Stop driving in the turning lane. You're going to kill someone. Anyway. So you got those, I think, were, yeah. I look at that and I go, you need some more systems, right? And then you've got places like where I come from, um, where I just think we have entire generations who have grown up under these systems and take them for granted as if they were handed down by God. And this is just the default of human experience. And I think in those situations, the balance is to remind, if you can, to remind yourself and your neighbors, they're not okay. They're not handed down by God. If there's anything that is analogous to being handed down by God, it is your responsibility to your family and your neighbor, you know? And you gotta start there and then be grateful for these systems that they can they can do it properly. So they're me.

SPEAKER_06 36:28

Yeah, so they're there. What uh uh so what I'm hearing is that they're there to help you, not replace you. I think so.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

And I think when they replace that sacred compact, when they truly replace it, the couple of things that happen, well, I think the organism changes individually and on the group level. And I get concerned again. I get concerned about the tyrant who has a the petty tyrant who has a small world and needs to feel because we all need to feel powerful. We all need it. We all need to feel like we have power over our world, we have agency over our own world. And I think that most people don't.

SPEAKER_06 37:17

So we all need to be uh live in an illusion.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Yeah, yeah, it's yes, it is a human need, and we will always strive for that. And so when you give an opportunity for power over people to a group, some small subsect of that group will go, My life is great, I just want to be a service. I have all these other ways that I feel like I have agency in my life, and I have control over my life and the decisions I make, and some small subsect will go, there's no control, man. I'm just doing the best I can and I can't control anything. And some subsect will unconsciously um substitute power over the people they're supposed to be protecting for the power that they don't feel in their marriage, family, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I think there's gotta be a pushback for that. Well, there doesn't have to be. Live your life, do whatever you want, I'm not your dad. But for me, I am gonna run into the waves. Sure. And maybe I won't, but that'll be because of my cowardice. It's not because I think I shouldn't.

SPEAKER_06 38:45

So I think that I'm gonna go back to Myrtle Beach for a second. I think that that's probably a really good um that's that might be the good middle way, is that you are expected if there's like if the lifeguard, if you're don't just stand there and wait for the lifeguard, you know, um, maybe send somebody to get the lifeguard while you like that's what they teach you in in CPR. Sure. Send someone to call 911, right? In fact, like when you act it out, they're always like, Lucas, call 911. Right. And then check the area, right? And you got to do the whole thing. But the good thing about that is is even though you are not the professional, you're given enough you're you're given enough information to be able to help someone without creating more trouble. Right. Uh so you're not stepping in, there's a puddle, and you don't realize that the reason the person's laying on the floor is because they just got shocked. And then you walk in, now you're shocked, and there's two people. Right. Sure. Okay. And so I think again, using Myrtle Beach as an example where they have these flotation devices, these big lifesavers, yeah, every few hundred yards.

SPEAKER_05 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:56

That's great because then it's like grab one of those and then try to help the person.

SPEAKER_05 40:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:00

So rather than telling people don't, don't do anything, provide people with the the some information, some resources, and able to be able to help. Does that make sense? Which is why I think it's important. Again, I'm going back to family of firemen. Uh, if we didn't have, like if I don't change the the the batteries in our fire detector every six months, I have to hear about it. Right? Okay, because that's important for us to know so that we can react properly. Sure. Also, how many homes have fire extinguishers in them? Sure. Ours do, because as a fireman family, we have been taught you have a fire extinguisher in your own home. Not just where, not just in public buildings, but in your own home. Yeah. So we've got all of the things, carbon monoxide, you know, we have all of it so that we can do something until the fire department gets there. And that's kind of the way that in in my mind it goes. Help the person until the person that can do it better than you is there, then get out of the way. Sure. Right? Same thing with CPR. Help them until the ambulance arrives and the EMTs are there, and then get out of the way and let them do their job.

SPEAKER_05 41:21

Sure.

SPEAKER_06 41:22

Uh help your neighbor. You know, do whatever you can. As soon as the fire department's there, get out of the way. Let them do their job. Um, active shooter, man, I don't even know what to do because I'm I don't have a gun. I don't have a thing. Um, but we have we've had training here on what to do. Um, and it's very interesting. Just for people that are listening, if you do want to know, if there's an active shooter, you actually charge them and pile on. That's what you're supposed to do. A knife, you run away, a gun, you run towards, which is counterintuitive. But anyway, there you go. We've also done a little bit of public service by giving you some information if there's an active shooter. Yeah. All right, so am I off? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 42:08

No, uh again, I think that this is a uh I think once again, we're probably about 85% overlap here. And I think that um our temperament um just uh lends us or or or or kind of uh has us drift towards slightly different um feelings of comfortability with some people and feelings of concern and bristling.

SPEAKER_06 42:41

Well, okay. And to your point about, you know, you have like sort of these three separate subgroups within whatever, right? Um it's very possible that my experience with the fire department and the police department, the people that I have, they're in that group of they're not petty tyrants.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

I bet they I I bet you're totally right.

SPEAKER_06 42:57

You know, I bet you're right. And so and and so they want you to be able to do things until they get there and get out of the way. Yeah. Um and so the I think that there has to be that balance. And it could be, again, you talked about Texas and Tennessee versus California. It could be regional at this point. You know, like maybe, maybe if the firemen that I knew, the fire, you know, the firefighters that I knew, I don't think firemen's the right term anymore. Firefighters that I knew, if they were from California, maybe, I don't know, but maybe they would be like, no, you just need to get out and make sure you're safe.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

Yeah. And I don't know that that's the case. I don't know, because yeah, I mean, my brother-in-law is a firefighter. It's fantastic. I don't I don't think this of him. I don't think of him as a tyrant. Yeah. Um, I have a very and another very dear friend who's a firefighter. Well, he he just retired, but he's a firefighter as well. Yeah. I don't think that of him. In fact, with both of these guys, um I think both of them would have the mindset of like, no, you help. Like, yeah, help. The reason I'm a firefighter is because I want the help. So you should help. That's your

SPEAKER_06 44:00

One last thought, maybe this is where we end. Going back to the article, right? So here we go, nicely. Um it wasn't it they didn't interview in there at least none of the quotes you shared, the lifeguard.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Yeah, I don't know. I don't there is who they interviewed were the bureaucrats.

SPEAKER_06 44:20

Yeah. Let me see if there's any the the the people who are now in positions of authority over these organizations.

SPEAKER_03 44:28

Yeah, I just looked. I don't see I only see quotes from the bureaucrats. Right. And who this is maybe that's telling. This is the other thing. Every time every article that I read who quotes experts. And I am tired. I'm why have I not been quoted yet?

unknown 44:48

I know.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

I know. I mean, obviously I'm an expert. I'm so tired of this term. Experts say, and I mean, half the time they don't even they don't even name drop the experts. You know what I do a lot?

SPEAKER_06 44:58

Okay, full disclose. You know what I do a lot in my writing? What? Scholars. I don't say expert. I say I say scholars disagree about this, or some scholars, you know. That's what I do. Yeah, that's good. And every now and then I'll I'll reference which scholars I'm talking about. For the most part, I'm just like, scholars have debated.

SPEAKER_03 45:18

I do it on Sunday mornings too. Have you ever noticed that? Yeah, and I understand it's a shorthand. It's it you could get into who the scholar, and if anybody pushed you, you would that's an academic way of saying the experts.

SPEAKER_06 45:30

You'd quote them, yes.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

It's just I know I'm gonna sound real postmodern here, but I mean, what makes what makes this person an expert? They say experts and then they quote people who are presidents of an association. I know what an association is. An association is simply a fundraising group that gets together people and um raises money by uh uh by charging dues to be part of a group. And you know why they do that? So they can pay their lobbyists. 100% of the time they're an advocacy group. That's what an association is. Sometimes they create bylaws to try to self-regulate their own people as well, but I guarantee you this, whoever this I love the look on your face right now as you're talking about. Alyssa Magram might be a lovely person, and I'm sure she's very competent. I've I don't know anything about her, but she's the executive director of the National Drowning Prevention Alliance. That is an advocacy group that raises money. She probably makes some sort of salary from it. I bet it's six figures. Congratulations to her. I don't begrudge that at all. But how why are we quoting her to tell me that I shouldn't go in and save my 11-year-old and I should call 911 and throw an icebox at him? Do you know what I mean? Like I just, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 46:49

I do love the image of throwing a cooler at people. Yeah. Um, yeah, because I'm picturing the big igloo cooler.

unknown 46:55

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

Well, and my coolers are all soft-sided, so I'm not sure that's gonna help much anyway.

SPEAKER_06 47:00

Yeah, or how yeah, or or what what's the uh um what are some of the new ones that are like I've got one that's really it like locks. Uh-huh. And it's like like if you hit somebody with it, you're knocking them cold. It's good. That's it. It's it it holds like a it's a perfect size for like a six pack. Uh-huh. So that's perfect. And and just you asked who's the expert. It's usually the people that I already agree with. Obviously. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

That's that's the only people you should be listening to.

SPEAKER_06 47:25

All right. Well, that was fun. And uh, if if anybody wants to chime in, email me and um jeffrey.strez off at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

Yeah, email him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:37

Don't bother me. Well, email, yeah, email email me because uh I've got nothing better to do. Lucas is busy. All right. Well, thanks. See you next week.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

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