Living On Common Ground
Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario? Every environment? Your church, your school, your work, your friends. Left, right. Conservative, liberal. Religious, secular. From parenting styles to school choice, denominational choice to governing preference, it seems you're always being asked to take a side.
This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground.
Living On Common Ground
Peter or Paul
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Everything feels like it comes with a team jersey now, even your faith, your politics, and your friendships. We start there because we’re tired of a world that demands you pick a side and stay there, and we’re trying to practice something harder: a real conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who actually respect each other.
That friendship sets up a big question from early church history and Christian theology: Jesus names Peter as the rock, yet Western Christianity often sounds like Paul wrote the operating system. We walk through why Pauline theology “wins” in practice, how Acts and Paul’s letters tell different kinds of truth, and what the New Testament being written in Koine Greek (with Aramaic mostly in quotes) reveals about audience, power, and reach. If you’ve ever wondered why some doctrines feel so central now, and yet hard to locate cleanly in the earliest layers, we dig into what changed and when.
From Jerusalem’s fall in 70 CE to traditions about Peter in Rome, we trace how geography and empire shape belief. We talk Gentile inclusion, Torah observance, and why “religion” itself can be an anachronistic label for the ancient world, where gods, culture, and identity are inseparable. We also explore how Christianity moves from fringe to favored, what Constantine actually does (and doesn’t) do, and why institutions tend to adopt the theologies that travel best through bureaucracy.
If you care about Bible scholarship, early Christianity, Paul vs Peter, or just how to stay human with people who disagree with you, come hang out with us. Subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review with the question you want us to tackle next.
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Does it feel like every part of your life is divided? Every scenario, every environment, your church, your school, your work, your friends, left, right, conservative, liberal, religious, secular. It seems you always have to take a side. This is a conversation between a progressive Christian and a conservative atheist who happen to be great friends. Welcome to Living on Common Ground. Do you think if we met today, we would still be friends? I don't know.
SPEAKER_02But we're friends now.
SPEAKER_05A mom is known as a mom because they are living in a dog. Man, so well, we want a few games. Y'all fools think that's something? Man, that ain't nothing, y'all. And you know what else? We ain't nothing either. Yeah, we came together in camp. Cool. But then we're right back here, and the world tells us that they don't want us to be together. We fall apart like we ain't a damn bit of nothing, man.
SPEAKER_03All right,
Marker 1
SPEAKER_03long time no
Marker 6
SPEAKER_03see.
Marker 7
SPEAKER_03Right? Yo, yo, yo. It's been two weeks.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
Marker 9
SPEAKER_03Two weeks.
SPEAKER_02I guess
Marker 10
SPEAKER_02it's been two weeks.
SPEAKER_03Well, last two uh last week you guys were in Knoxville. Oh, that's why. Big K town.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And the week before that, you were uh you had gone to an owner's meeting out in California.
unknownYeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_03For uh for draft. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So uh is awesome. I'm gonna win it all to this year.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. But and if you're listening and you don't know what in the world we're talking about, uh Lucas is uh a rock star, fantasy football uh-huh uh owner. Yeah do you call yourselves owners? What do you call yourselves?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Owners, managers. I guess managers. Maybe that's managers. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh what I call myself is uh an every year loser.
SPEAKER_03Canon fodder. Yeah, cannon fodder.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. All right. It's just really fun, that's all.
SPEAKER_03Good. Good. And you guys got to see it win in Knoxville.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. We well, we we watched half the game. We were in it was super hot. We were in the sun and we ended up uh going up and just standing in the under the shade. Okay. Um, and so we stayed there for half the game and we were like, okay, I think we're done. I think we understand what's happening here.
SPEAKER_03What was the score at halftime when you left?
SPEAKER_02Uh I think they were uh four touchdowns to zero. Nice. I think that's what it was. They were favored by seven. This is what I heard. They were favored by seven. No.
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_02They were yes. Only seven? Seven touchdowns.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02They were favored by I wish I could remember exactly what it was.
SPEAKER_03So they're favored by 49.
SPEAKER_02That's what it was. They were favored by 49. And but Furman brought them to within 48. I think that's what it was, 48 or 47. They missed the spread by, I think it was one point.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that crazy?
SPEAKER_03It shows how good the bookmakers really are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I just thought that was like, oh man, if you I mean, I don't I don't bet.
SPEAKER_03I like I don't gamble, but you know who else lost money over the weekend. Anyone that picked Michigan.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03That's your favorite. That's your favorite story. I feel like anyone that picks Michigan ever is a loser. Wait, didn't you say they won at the end? Yeah. So there's no way they've lost. But there's no way they beat the spread. Yes, true. Against Western Michigan. I don't I don't know what the spread was, but. I don't know. Now, if you put money on the refs helping them win, you won. Yeah. That was a that was a win. All right, give me your theological question. Okay. Because I obviously have all the answers.
SPEAKER_02Jesus says, I'm gonna build my church on Peter. Peter is considered the first Pope. Okay. Why is our um and is it just a is it just because of Protestantism that it seems like the church is built on Paul?
SPEAKER_03Okay, these are great questions.
SPEAKER_02Um I know that a lot of people love to hate on Paul, and I don't really hate on Paul, but I think it does seem like the church is built on Paul, not on Peter.
SPEAKER_03So Paul I love Paul, and um I think Paul just gets a bad rap. And um and I think that anyone that is in uh the Christian faith, especially the Western Christian faith, um if if you have a problem with Paul, you actually have a problem with um the Christian tradition. Because he is he i it's it's his theology that um that wins out. All right, so um let's see.
SPEAKER_04What you okay, so uh let's see. Build my church. Let's see what this says.
SPEAKER_02I'm looking it up. I was thinking about it because I was listening to a podcast today. It was random. It's uh actually about Irish history, but he's talking about he the the historian was um talking about um uh the Vatican, and he mentions you know, the Vatican is is um important for a number of reasons, but then it's he says, you know, uh the uh burial site of uh St. Peter. So supposed to have the St. Peter's bones there. And then it just made me think, like, oh yeah, that's right. Peter's supposed to be the origin. So why does it seem like Paul's the origin? Yeah, for the Roman writing first.
SPEAKER_03Right. Okay, so tradition tells us the Roman Catholic Church, the founder of the Roman Catholic Church is Peter, uh, whereas the founder of the uh North African Church was Mark. And what about the Alexandria orthopedic? Um trying to think who they are traced to Peter also? Because it would be pri No That'd be prior to the So Thomas is given credit for starting the church out in India. Okay. Who gets credit for the church in like Greek Orthodox um in Russia and all the Slavic countries? Yeah, I'd have to look that one up. Okay. Um anyway. Okay, so muddying the waters. No, that's good. So uh a couple different things. One is um our theology, and I I could go long on this one, but our theology is actually um something that we inherit from Paul. Okay. Okay. Uh the the quick, the short version of that is so in the early church, you've got division between um between Paul and um his crew and James and his crew. All right. Peter finds himself often uh in the middle, depending on what you read. So, like if you read the book of Acts and you say, Oh, this is historically accurate, how wonderful. Now look at how we have hit access to all of the true history of the church, surely church, okay. Um, then it's gonna appear that there was really not much of a conflict. And when there was, you know, Paul kind of was like, oh yeah, I'm sorry, you guys are right. And and they came together and they came up with some great compromise and things like that. But if you read Paul's letters, that's not the case. And so the question becomes who's right? Um, and I tend to be uh the per a person that says, I think that it's we get more uh sort of accurate um and we can have a more accurate indication of what the relationship is going by Paul's letters than we can by the book of Acts. Because the book of Acts is a theological book. It's it's not the the author of the book of Acts is not trying to tell us history. By tradition, the book of Acts is written by Luke, right? Yeah. Whoever the author of Luke is is also the author of the book of Acts. Aaron Powell So it's a Greek book. Written in Greek.
SPEAKER_02Are Paul's letters written in Greek? Or does it depend on who he's writing to? Are they all written in Greek?
SPEAKER_03Really? Yeah. He's not writing in Aramaic or New Testament is written in uh Greek. Aramaic shows up uh when there are quotes. Okay. So like if it's a direct quote, they might write it in Aramaic.
SPEAKER_02All New Testament books are written in Koine. Mm-hmm. Interesting.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I did not realize that. I thought I thought maybe uh Paul's stuff was written in Latin or did did Paul They wouldn't have written Latin. Ostensibly, then Paul speaks Greek. He's a Greek-speaking Roman citizen.
SPEAKER_03He is able to Paul is probably one of the few early church persons that is or people there. Is that better?
SPEAKER_02Say whatever you want. I just know your political persuasion, depending on what you say.
SPEAKER_03I know. Um and uh um which that gets me to a thing I'm writing about theology too. So let's spend some time talking about theology here. So um so Paul is probably one of the few that can um read in Hebrew and Greek, can speak Greek.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah. Okay. So that's what I would have assumed that some of the people are.
SPEAKER_03He can probably speak, he can probably speak Aramaic. Nobody's speaking Hebrew at the time. No one's speaking Hebrew? Not not just out in the street. No. Jewish Jesus would have been speaking Aramaic.
SPEAKER_02So all the Judeans are speaking Aramaic or are they speaking Greek?
SPEAKER_03Except in their worship services and things like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So it's okay. So at that point, Hebrew is kind of like what Latin is in the world.
SPEAKER_03It's the language of the religion. Yeah. Right. Okay. But just your common, your common vernacular, is that the right word? Yeah. Yeah. Would have been um would have been Aramaic. Okay. All right. Um, and so Paul can probably speak Aramaic. I say probably because we don't know anything for sure, right? Of course. Um, he can probably uh speak Latin. Okay, because he's also a Roman citizen, having grown up in Tarsus, as far as we know. Right. And can read in probably all three of those languages. But the only reason that you would want to be able to read Latin is for like official government edicts. Because if you're writing like if you're writing like a uh philosophical book or whatever, you're you're generally writing in Greek. Koine Greek is is still pretty prior the primary written language of the academic.
SPEAKER_02That makes sense. Because the Greek slaves are the are the tutors.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So they're all being taught how to read and write and study in Greek. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay. And all of his letters.
SPEAKER_03But if you want to be able to read what the Romans have written on their buildings, you better be able to read Latin. Sure. Right? Because they're like the government language is still very much now because of Rome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but if I remember correctly, Rome didn't impose language requirements or anything like that. They were a lot like Persia. They just let you have whatever kind of tradition you wanted.
SPEAKER_03So if you wanted to know, though, then you needed to learn. Because they may not impose on you Latin, but by God, that's what they're speaking.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. That's going to be everybody.
SPEAKER_03So that's where like that's where like the story where Jesus is having a one-on-one conversation with Pilate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You know. It's a it's a great story. It's theologically, there's some wonderful things that are taking place there historically. Yeah, I I would it's a highly suspect historical story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because you've got a a guy who speaks Latin and you who's the governor of the entire province. Yeah. Is he really going to take the time to speak to a peasant who can only speak Aramaic?
SPEAKER_02There's there's lots of parts of that story that I find historically dubious anyway. But um but that's okay. But that's because if you're if anybody because it's not for that. No, the Bible's not for your history. Wait. Okay. I'm looking at all of his uh his letters. So all of his letters are actually going to Greek cities, aren't they? The ones that are named after cities are going to Greek cities.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, or they're going to Greek speaking people.
SPEAKER_02Um there's uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's I never really put that scene in the world.
SPEAKER_02Most scholars do not think he wrote Hebrews. No. We got Corinth, Galatia, uh Ephesia. I think that's right. Philippi. Ephesus, thank you. Jeez.
SPEAKER_04It's okay.
SPEAKER_02Philippi. Uh-huh. Uh Colossae. Okay, Colisei. Uh-huh. Thessalonica. Uh-huh. And then the rest are written to people. Yeah. And he didn't even write all those. Sure. But I'm just saying, like, I I never really thought about the fact that all the cities are great cities. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Like, for example, he wrote First Thessalonians. Most scholars agree that he wrote 1 Thessalonians. Hardly anybody actually believes he wrote Second Thessalonians. Okay, so, but your original question is, what's up with Peter and Paul? So Paul, um, when uh you know James dies, uh, tradition tells us James dies around 62, 63 AD. And um and then uh Jerusalem falls and the temple's destroyed in 70. Okay. Uh Paul's also already dead by then. Um but Paul's theology at this point wins out because the the central the the the power of the Jerusalem church was its was its epicenter. And so when Jerusalem is destroyed, the church that still remains in Jerusalem ends up also out in the diaspora. Okay. Where Paul's theology is primary. Okay. Right? So that's where that's the reason that today Christians don't have to uh they don't have to be Torah observant. Sure. Because Paul's theology won out. Yeah. Because that was a huge debate.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. And so Paul's theology wins out. So we have a lot of our theology from Paul. However, people do believe tradition teaches us there's no way to know because it's not in like it it just doesn't show up. Um there's no way for us to historically accurately know. But tradition tells us that Peter was the first one to go to Rome and begin to teach. Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Now out of Jerusalem.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Now that would have happened in the uh say how soon did he get there? Okay. Let's just let's just just for the sake of argument, say it's somewhere in 50 mid mid to late 50s or somewhere within the 50 uh um CE. Okay. Okay. Um the gospel of Matthew, which talks about you are my you are the rock on whom I will build my church, is written around 80. So 30 years, say, 25 to 30 years after these guys were all dead. Sure. After all of Paul's letters have been written. Um and uh and so the tradition now has started to teach them that Peter was the first one there, that he established the church. Paul wrote to the church. We have the book of Romans, right? But he didn't that's the that is a letter, that's the one letter we believe that he wrote that he did not found the church. Because he hadn't gotten there yet. He talks about, oh, I can't wait to get there, but he does. So the belief is that Peter had gone there and had started the church, and so Peter and Paul were both um not Mary, but just Peter and Paul, were both martyred. I know, sorry, I couldn't help myself.
SPEAKER_02Unacceptable.
SPEAKER_03Right. They were both martyred in Rome. Okay. So you have a tradition of Peter being the founder of the church in Rome. So when Matthew is writing, Matthew includes the commissioning of Peter as the founder of the church.
SPEAKER_02Isn't that weird to imagine what's Peter doing going to Rome? What is the audience that he thinks he's gonna he's gonna get going to Rome?
SPEAKER_03Well, the only thing I could think of is because there he's probably still aligned.
SPEAKER_02Okay, Peter he's still of the idea that in general this is a Jewish thing.
SPEAKER_03I think so, probably, right? Um, you know, of course, you have the story about uh him in Antioch with Peter or with Paul at the same time. Sure. But that only shows up in the story, uh that only start shows up in Paul's letters. That doesn't show up in the book of Acts, where Paul uh uh where Paul dresses him down. Yeah. Right. Um so uh I just like what's why is he like what either he's decided to help Paul out, right, but my guess is it's more likely like Paul originally started, where first we're gonna go to the church in the diaspora. We're gonna go to the Jews that are in Rome, right? Because there's there's a Jewish community in Rome. Um and so let me go tell them about the the that you know we've we've met the Messiah. And so they're gonna go up and start teaching in synagogues, and maybe that's how we got there. Here's a uh I doubt he was like, I think I need to go tell Romans.
SPEAKER_02Here's a complete, yeah, that's my point. Yeah, I don't think so. He's still trying to um evangelize to Jewish people. I would imagine. So here's a here's a fun complete fiction. Um Rome's a long way away from Jerusalem. Yeah. It's a long way away. Even in a car. Even in a car. I mean, it's well, okay. So when when Rome talks about conquests in the East, um in Asia, yeah. I mean, they're talking about this area. The the the Levant. Yeah, right. Okay. And they're also talking about other stuff too. I'm not trying to say. I mean, obviously they're not.
SPEAKER_03We can try to what we consider near like the like near East. Near East, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02We think Asia, we think China. They're they're talking when they say they called it. I mean, that this is the other thing, too, by the way. That's why I think it's just interesting. So much of how we name the world, how we think things are named originally, they all come from Rome. Asia's called Asia because they had a province of Asia. They came up with that. Palestine is called Palestine because they came up with that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02There's just a name that Rome called it. It's not original.
SPEAKER_03I was just writing something this week and I wrote about in the province of Asia. Yeah. And it's actually like Turkey.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's right. They had like a province. Anyway, yeah. I just think that's interesting. So here's a fun, this is complete fiction, but I think that would be interesting as an idea of why Peter's going to Rome. Because it is a long way away. It's it stretches cr it strains credulity for me that there would be any kind of significant diaspora of Jewish people in Rome at the time, like some sort of community. I don't know why that would be. They had only been conquered, you know, some whatever 50 years prior, something like that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, but uh Rome loved their slaves. And um I could imagine um Jewish Judeans being brought back as slaves. And it would be really beneficial if those slaves that came back were because they would have been near, they're not Greek, they're Judean, but they're still in the same area, they speak Greek. It's not outside of um, it's not outside of the realm of possibility for me in my mind that you could have some of them that come back as educated slaves. So tutors, you know.
SPEAKER_03Well, we know after the after the destruction of the temple, Josephus is a great example of what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_02Great, perfect.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh and this is this is the time period of Herod, who is a um who uh um Mark Anthony is his patron, you know. And so uh we know that slaves in Roman society not all the time and not very often, but but would climb into positions of authority, like Joseph in you know, in the Old Testament, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03I was thinking of like Seneca. Yeah. Now he's not Judean, but I think it's a good example.
SPEAKER_02Same, same type of thing. Um uh all of the great all of the senators had some slave that that was like ran their household and was super important to them and whatever. Cicero had one, and they they all had one. Okay, so what if there were Judean slaves who had risen in ranks? Like came under, you know, were uh owned by uh senators or whatever, and Peter's going to try to convert them. Because it does it there's always a question in my mind. I'm taught the the Roman history, and during this time, there's kind of this amor there's this like amorphous era where somehow Christians work their way into this is how it's always described. Christians kind of work their way into the governmental hierarchy in Rome. And they start making their presence known. And at first it's a problem. And so they start being persecuted, but they're not being persecuted necessarily. Yes, they are being persecuted as some sort of um fringe group. But part of the reason that they're being persecuted is because they're a problem in the government. And so there's like the um uh I don't, I'm gonna get the time period wrong, but call it something like the middle of the second century through the middle of the third century. There's this swinging back and forth of like uh Rome is going way against them. There's purges, prescriptions, stuff like that, to now they're favored all the way until you get to Constantine, where he says it's all good. Yeah, he didn't make it a lot of people think he made it the state religion. He didn't do that. But he did say they are absolutely protected, they're cool. I'm yeah, because didn't he have one son that tried to then go back to the Roman cultus? So I don't know if it's his son, but uh Julian the apostate is the one who after Constantine says, yeah, no, we're going back to he was a conservative.
SPEAKER_03And then when he dies, or when when he's out of power, then it's then the next one is like no, we're going. And it's full steam ahead. From then on, it's state religion. Right. And just as a side note, the reason in my mind it becomes a state religion is not because they had become uh theologically convinced. It is because it was much easier to rule because the at that point for why they at that point you have a built-in structure to help you govern. I do think that's part of it. And I also just think that bishops now have political power.
SPEAKER_02I also think that it's because a lot of these people in the bureaucracy happened to be.
SPEAKER_04It's like okay, if you forgive me. No.
SPEAKER_02No, I'm not gonna go into that one. No, I want to hear.
SPEAKER_03No, no, I'm super excited because as soon as you ask me to forgive you, I'm like, ooh, this must be serious. Because you never, you never preface it with that. You're always like, I'm just gonna say it and I'll assume that you're gonna forgive me.
SPEAKER_02I'm not gonna talk about uh contemporary people, although I think it's relevant.
SPEAKER_03I'm no we're totally talking history here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I'm gonna talk about uh during Now I'm gonna be highly offended because I'm gonna put myself in. No, you're you you're gonna know what I'm talking about since I start talking about prior to World War II um the British mandate in Palestine. Um so the for anybody who doesn't know, the British Mandate meant that I mean uh the UK, England, controlled that area and they were making the rules, allowing a certain number of Jewish people in, they were supposed to maintain anyway, they were the they were like the refs.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02They controlled it.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02Well, at one point, the guy who is in charge, the British guy who's in charge is openly saying that he wants Zionists to take over the area because it's going to bring the end times on. This is this is prior to World War II. That's not all of them, right? But it's one, it's the guy who was in charge for a while. And so that's what it kind of reminds me of. Like where you have all of these bureaucracies, any bureaucracy that controls anything governmentally, it's run by people. And those people have ideas about the world. You know? Doesn't matter what kind of rules you put in place, they're just, they're still people. And so they're gonna default to things based on what seems right to them, based on how they see the world. And so what I'm saying is like, I going back to what we were talking about before, I think a lot of the reason that Rome becomes a Christian state is simply because the people, there's enough people in the bureaucracy that were Christian that it just hit some sort of tipping point. And then it was more political, advan politically advantageous to go along with that. At some points, there were emperors and other um uh, you know, proconsuls and magistrates and stuff who were like pushing back. They were conservative. They were like, this is not, we're not doing this, we're not going this way, you know, like this is we're not elegableists, we're not, you know what I mean. Um, but they just lost. They lost in the end. And uh and and also you're totally right that um that Christianity gave uh a particular form of Christianity gave them some control as well. And so that helped.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think you have uh built, like I said, I mean, uh Rome obviously had a very built, very structured government. Um, but it doesn't hurt that you have people already in all the different provinces, all the different that have there's a hierarchy already starting to be established within the Christian church and all that kind of stuff, and it just becomes a lot, it's just another mechanism for you to govern. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so all that's interesting. So you're saying uh back to your original question. Go ahead. We follow we follow. We it's mostly as far as I can tell, the church is built on Paul more than Peter because the destruction of Jerusalem. Yes, actually.
SPEAKER_03I think Paul's theology is what we uh is what our base is, right? Because I think that we've gotten I think that there are things now that um we consider like just core Christian uh doctrine, right? That would seem really foreign to Paul. Um, and then even cause and the thing is, and I'm I'm just gonna say this too, that I've had people tell me a particular Christian doctrine that we that sort of is mainline in the United States and Western Christianity today, and then try to point out where Paul says it.
SPEAKER_04And no. Um, you're putting you're putting our understanding of a word onto what Paul wrote.
SPEAKER_02Um so okay, so here's the here's the question that back again to kind of the side question. Is this a function of Protestantism, though? When we say our church follows Pauline theology, is it because of Protestantism?
SPEAKER_03Well, no, I don't think so. Uh okay, imagine imagine for a moment that uh you and I um are are sent out to to start a community. Okay. And we get there, and you're like, this is this is where we're this is where it's gonna be. Okay. And uh and we have an agreement.
SPEAKER_02Hopefully it's Paul and Barnabas and not Romulus and Remus.
SPEAKER_03This is Lucas and and Jeffreyus. Okay. Okay. Because your name already has the us at the end of it. Um design. So we show up and and I'm like, okay, Lucas, you're gonna you're gonna run the show. Okay? You're gonna be Caesar. First mistake, right?
SPEAKER_04I'm gonna write the laws. Okay. Who founded it? Sure. That's kind of what we're asking, right?
SPEAKER_03So Peter shows up first. Peter starts building the inroads. But it's not Peter's theology, it's not Peter's quote unquote laws, rules, doctrine that that starts to establish.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, but it doesn't mean that it's not his.
SPEAKER_04It's like um, you know, uh I'm trying to think of some other examples.
SPEAKER_02Um Peter comes around to Paul's way of thinking on uh just being open to Gentiles, right? That's the whole vision of the book of Acts thing.
SPEAKER_03According to the book of Acts. But I also believe that the reason that Peter has this moment in the book of Acts is because the early church has already adopted Paul's transition. They need to get and they need to show that the founder also was in line. Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03In fact, you know, Peter was right there, and so we should all be right there too.
SPEAKER_04Right? Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
SPEAKER_03Yep. So um, you know, I uh I find the book of Acts very interesting to help me understand the dynamics of the early church, to find out what they were struggling with, um, what they were trying to establish um as norms and things like that, and how they were using their story, their their myth, in order to establish the current um practices. And you think Paul support the current practices.
SPEAKER_02You think Paul right from the beginning thinks um this is a this is a faith that is not for a people. It's for it's for any person I come across.
SPEAKER_03I think what Paul is doing is for first of all, Paul struggles.
SPEAKER_02That's gotta be the Greek influence, right?
SPEAKER_03Oh, there's okay, so you've got four now that you brought it up, you've got several influences for Paul, right? He's uh he's a Jew, he's a Pharisaic Jew, he's a Hellenistic Jew. So all of that is like you can lump all that together. But those are all very distinct, Pharisaic and Hellenistic Jewishness. Sure. Right. Um, so a good example of a Hellenistic Jew would be um uh Philo of Alexandria. Uh-huh. All right, and some of the things that he writes, if you if you kind of want to see the sort of the mindset that Paul would have had, you can read some of Philo of Alexandria's theological treatise, treatise. Um, and it's gonna surprise people. I think it would surprise people. Because things today were like, oh, no, no, no, no. Already then they're like, well, yeah, you know. So, like for example, people today that are like, no, the Bible is actually historically accurate. Philo of Alexandria is like, it's all an allegory.
SPEAKER_04Sure.
SPEAKER_03All right. That's a contemporary of Paul's. Which is why Paul can write things like Jesus was, you know, the rock that they drew water from while they were out in the desert wandering around. Sure. He doesn't mean his, he doesn't mean that literally, right? Okay. And we wouldn't take it literally, which is so funny because some things were like, oh, that's not literal, and other things were like, oh, that's absolutely literal. Well, maybe the whole thing's just theological. All right. So what was it, what were we talking about here? Oh, his influences. So you got that. Uh tradition tells us he's from Tarsus, all right, and that he was a Roman citizen. So there's uh there's a Greek philosophical influence that he's gonna pick up from Tarsus, right? Primarily stoicism, but not just Stoicism. But he's that's an influence. Uh he has a very um cosmopolitan worldview that he wouldn't have gotten had he grown up in Palestine, right? Um, and so you have sort of all of these things working on him, and then and then he has this, I would call it a significant emotional event um on the road to Damascus. It's described in in the book of Acts uh three different ways, because the story is actually told three times. And all three times it's slightly different.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_03Um, and then Paul actually tells about it himself in one of his letters, and it's different than all the ones, all the tellings of it in Acts. So the best we can say is that he has some kind of significant emotional event that he attributes to the divine on the road to Damascus, on the road to uh Damascus. Damascus. Yeah, I combined two roads. Um okay. Then he has to process this. And Paul tells us in in his letter that he disappeared for three years before he met with Peter in Jerusalem. Um and so the way I kind of read it and what I understand is that he's processing the way that all of us would on what's going on. So your question is about the idea of the full inclusion, not just within the Jewish community, right? That's kind of how we started this. So in in the prophets in the Old Testament, so he has yes, he has a um he has a much more cosmopolitan worldview than his contemporaries who are in Jerusalem would have. Um but also that the way he would read the prophets, and the way you can read the prophets, and I would say you you you Paul probably read the prophets, is that when when the Messiah does come, all nations and all people will come to worship the one true God, will come to worship Yahweh. Right. And so if you somehow make everyone become Jewish, then Jesus is not the real Messiah. Because the real Messiah brings in all nations and all peoples. He doesn't, it doesn't say that they make he makes them all Jewish. Yeah. Right. And so so for Paul, if and and he he writes about this too, if if you make everyone become Jewish, then you are then you are denying the identity of Jesus as the Messiah, as the anointed one. Yeah. This is why it's this is why it's not just a little trifling matter.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not a trifling matter. It's such a it it's so fascinating to me because it is not it's not like something I think that we I uh uh well I know that we have an anachronistic idea, first of all, of what religion is when we think historically. That happens all the time. It's very difficult to get out of that. I'm not trying to say that I do it well, I'm just saying like um it it's 99.99% of the time when you hear somebody talking about religion and history, they're speaking about it anachronistically. They would not have understood what you meant by religion. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. Um gods weren't part of your religion, but they were the world. They were and and it was your gods. You couldn't have what's a good what like uh like a a Judean couldn't worship a Thracian god. It wouldn't that doesn't even make any sense. Like what how they don't even speak the same language. They don't, they're not it's not a religion. There's no such thing as religion. You know what I mean? Like, and so this this idea of first of all, the idea even of Peter and James being like, you all can come into this idea that we have now you're gonna have to get circumcised, you're gonna have to do some different things, but then you're grafted onto the vine. That right there is a weird philosophical idea. And so, um Which was already a little in the tradition.
SPEAKER_03You had a few. They just called them God fearers. Sure, but it was And generally it was people that were slaves within the household already.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I this is where I go back to like, I wonder if this type of concept, faith, could only be birthed under empire, where the the umbrella of empire has washed away at least enough of the divisions where you could be a Judean and living in, you're just forced your whole life, generation upon generation, to be living in places where you have other people around you and you are cosmopolitan. And you have enough of those people where you could have these ideas start to percol percolate. Yeah. And then you could get a Paul.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Who has, you know, he has his own experience. His own experience is uh is this thing with this uh this Jewish rabbi who is the Messiah and is um and you know, he hears the story of crucifixion and resurrection and will come again and all of this kind of stuff. And it is unique. But he's one of these people, I just think it seems like he's one of these people that has lived under this cosmopolitan empire, so that he is able to imagine that that could that could be separate from who you are as a person.
SPEAKER_03I think just an idea. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I think that yes, there's uh absolute truth to what you're saying. I think also, though, that built within um the Jewish tradition, if you follow the trajectory they were heading, um, it seems to me like it becomes a uh a natural next step. So if you if you go through their text, their scripture that they would have had at the time, um, you can see it and they don't they don't hide it. It's right in there. They start with um they start with uh polytheism, right? Where uh Yahweh is one of several gods. It talks about Yahweh being in the court with the other gods, something like that, uh, that transitions into henotheism, where we continue to believe that there are multiple gods. In fact, there's this great story in the Old Testament about how Yahweh gets the uh the heavenly council together, and then um there are many, there, the nations are determined by the number of gods that are at the council. Like it's just amazing. He's like, okay, so we're gonna send Baal over here, and then those people are yours, and then we're gonna, you know, and this there's this whole image that takes place. Um, but God, but at that point, Yahweh is the one in charge of the whole thing. And then they get defeated by Babylon, and then they have to do, um, they have to reconsider everything, and that's when they move into monotheism, and that God is actually the only God, and um, and he was using you to teach us a lesson. You may not even know it. In fact, they uh for the first time they used the word messiah to refer to a foreign king, um, which is Cyrus? Yeah, which is also like what is happening right here, right? Because um, well, I don't want to get into the whole theology of Messiah in Christ, but um so Paul comes from that. Plus, like you said, you've got such a blending going on because of empire. And if God is already the God of all persons, of all people, of all people groups, then it's just natural that at some point God's Messiah is going to be an all-inclusive of all people, regardless of your origin, you know, your race, your your gender, uh, because he says male, female, slave and free, uh, Jew and Gentile. And so those are like the three categories that he uses as his explanation, because in his world, those would have been the three primary ways that they would have been.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that would have covered everyone.
SPEAKER_03That covers everyone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So so I think, yes, it has to do, and that's why I say Paul's like, I don't think Christianity looks at all like it does today without someone like Paul, uniquely positioned to do this. If it was James and Peter, we would have all become Jews if we want to be a Christian. And their Christianity wouldn't have even existed. It would have just been like a s a sect within Judaism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's just um these contingencies are always fascinating to me. I mean, because um I know we gotta wrap up, but seems to me like uh uh Babylon was moving in the same direction at the same time. That's why I I think that I think everybody was. That's why I feel it. I feel like it's it's the the somehow the Hebrew text um survives and and it's my I mean my own personal opinion is it just seems to me like it was all the Semitic all the Semitic tribes were all they're they're all um you know cousins and they all are kind of traveling in the same direction generally, but they're bumping off of each other and obviously they're they all have uh different flavors but marduk is he's the number one of all you know of all the gods by b by the time of babylon yeah when babylon hits its peak absolutely right and i and not number one in the way that like Zeus was the king of the gods but also subject to kind of um other powers and could be he could be pushed around a little bit you know what I mean like Marduk was the Marduk was like he's not the same as Yahweh that's not what I'm saying but he he to the to the Babylonians he was number one he was like they he they were I feel like they were going toward conceptually he is the exact same thing as Yahweh yeah he would they were going toward monotheism yeah you could imagine in a thousand more years it's they they had monotheism but the but yeah there's a well there's a lot of there's a lot of these things that um you know you talked about um you know the way that we talk about religion and stuff it it the the idea doesn't make sense because it's just baked into your culture it's just what you are yeah but there's a lot of things that are similar um and I think that's because they're all kind of getting towards the same ideas just coming from different places.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Um so like the idea of uh the king being or the pharaoh or the emperor being the earthly representation of the divine deity is the exact same thing that's the exact same concept of Messiah in Judaism.
SPEAKER_02Um it it's it's a it's the deliverer right I mean it's the incarnate presence of the divine yeah yeah um and the whole idea of being anointed simply means you have been you it's it's in you it's it's coming through you it's poured out on you it's like it you are anointed but you you know yeah topic for another day I think we perhaps have lost something with our continued sublimation of all of these concepts by the way I think it's possible that there is something that you lose when you don't believe when you don't know that the actual oil itself that you're putting on your body to anoint you has actual properties when you just go, well this is a symbol I wonder if you lose something psychologically. We can talk about that.
SPEAKER_03Psychologically so at some point we need to talk about I think that's sacramental theology is what we need to talk about. Yeah. Yeah I'd love to yeah and the other thing I want to talk about is an article I'm writing uh currently yes um I'm hoping to have it done and up on my Substack account Monday. Um so the title of the article is Not All Progressive Christians are progressive theologians. Okay. I like that I I'm trying to uh yeah I was having a conversation with Gary the other day and um I was trying to just explain what I meant when I said that and um and then he said well maybe you need to come up with a better term than progressive when you're talking about theology and um and so I trying out instead of talk when I when I talk about my theology, instead of talking in terms of I have a progressive theology, because I again real quick, this is just a teaser. I think I'd like to talk about this with you next week, but that'll give you if it comes out Monday, that'll give you a chance to read it. But um I I often will describe my theology as progressive theology.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But at the same time I don't view myself as a progressive in the term as far as like um what we think of when we think of a progressive. Because there are certain things that I am conservative about. I'm more of a moderate. Yeah yeah right um by the way I I couldn't remember what it's called but I did share with somebody today the idea of you're walking along and you come to a gate and before you tear the gate down you better know why it's up. Uh-huh what's that called Chesterton's gate or Chesterton's fest fence whatever. I shared that with somebody today I was like nah um so I was like God I think I'm becoming a um libertarian. Anyway um no that's not liberty that's just straight up conservative man. I know um hey listen I may be more willing to tear the fence down though than you would be yeah of course yeah but that's okay.
SPEAKER_02But we've all we've gone over this so many times.
SPEAKER_03Okay so anyway just here's the term here's the term I've come up with yeah all right yep and it's a working it's working title it may not work but a constructive theologian all right fine you and your terms let's hey you know what let's deconstruct constructive I am theologian I am so over I am so over the term deconstruct.
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